Police Officers And Gun Training

[Slappo]

[url="http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24/multiple-people-shot-near-empire-state-building-in-manhattan-police-say/Our?intcmp=obinsite"]http://www.foxnews.c...intcmp=obinsite[/url]

All 9 bystanders hit during the recent New York shooting were hit by bullets fired by NYPD. 16 shots were fired by NYPD and 9, more than 50%, hit bystanders.

I understand the need to think on your feet and a life and death situation... but seriously? "Trained" police officers having less than 50% accuracy firing in the midst of innocent bystanders? They are lucky that none of the bystanders were seriously injured or killed.


Edit: Posted in debate table as I'm pretty sure it'll turn into one regarding gun safety gun laws and police training.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Slappo

[PhuturePriest]

Police gun training might as well be called "Hold this shiny thing and shoot in whatever direction you like". Their target practice is little more than fifteen feet away. That hardly trains someone for shooting weapons. I have no problem with them starting out at fifteen feet, but they should eventually lengthen it to fifty feet at the very least during training. This actually reminds me of Ron White when he was talking about when the Los Angeles police shot hundreds of rounds at a guy who was at point-blank range and couldn't hit him. I shoot guns and I'm good at it. I am not saying it is easy, I am simply saying if I can shoot guns every now and then and become a good marksmen than the police should be able to shoot better after training.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1346974605' post='2479556']
[s]Police gun training[/s] [i]The police firearm training that I am familiar with[/i] might as well be called "Hold this shiny thing and shoot in whatever direction you like". Their target practice is little more than fifteen feet away.[/quote]

Kthxbai

[stevil]

I'm not going to get into debate here, but guns can be lethal, and shooting in a crowded area can be extremely dangerous.
Anyone shooting in such circumstances better be prepared to justify their actions to the law and to society, irregardless whether they are police or not.
Was it worth putting bystanders lives at risk?

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1346974944' post='2479558']
Kthxbai
[/quote]

I was actually going to fix that, but I was too lazy.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1346975300' post='2479562']
I was actually going to fix that, but I was too lazy.
[/quote]

Solid.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1346975551' post='2479565']
Solid.
[/quote]

Snake.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1346975109' post='2479560']
Was it worth putting bystanders lives at risk?
[/quote]weren't they already at risk?

Should accuracy standards be higher, or should guns be taken away from police?

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346978905' post='2479589']
weren't they already at risk?

Should accuracy standards be higher, or should guns be taken away from police?
[/quote]
Reading the article it seems that the shooter had one specific target whom he had already shot, he was leaving the scene, so it seems the danger had already passed.
Possibly a better approach would have been to follow him at distance and look to engage/detain at a point in time when there were less bystanders, yes they would have run the risk of him getting away, but they also would have had less risk of other people being hurt.
Certainly it would also make sense to ensure that if police are to be armed that they are also properly trained.

[Groo the Wanderer]

too many donuts in the holster

Texas cops shoot much better. Heck, so do Texas civilians

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1346974605' post='2479556']
Police gun training might as well be called "Hold this shiny thing and shoot in whatever direction you like". Their target practice is little more than fifteen feet away. That hardly trains someone for shooting weapons. I have no problem with them starting out at fifteen feet, but they should eventually lengthen it to fifty feet at the very least during training. This actually reminds me of Ron White when he was talking about when the Los Angeles police shot hundreds of rounds at a guy who was at point-blank range and couldn't hit him. I shoot guns and I'm good at it. I am not saying it is easy, I am simply saying if I can shoot guns every now and then and become a good marksmen than the police should be able to shoot better after training.
[/quote]

FP, 90% of all shootings that occur in real life happen in close quarters, less than ten feet. That is the reason for 15 feet range marking. Accuracy on all bullets lessen at distance, especially handguns with the shorter barrels, shorter barrels equals less rifling in the barrel and less accuracy in the gun plus the effect of minor movement of the hand is exaggerated by the short barrel of a handgun. Naturally a rifle is much more accurate.

Have you considered the difference in firing at a piece of paper in a range and firing at a human being? Not only the difficulty of being fired upon yourself, having to control a weapon while trying to avoid being shot, but the possibility of taking anothers life. These police need reprimanded and maybe even fired for their choice of returning fire in a situation with so many bystanders present, not for their ability to shoot or their aim.

ed

[4588686]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1346984564' post='2479630']
too many donuts in the holster

Texas cops shoot much better. Heck, so do Texas civilians






[/quote]

Texans do love to claim that.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1346975109' post='2479560']
I'm not going to get into debate here, but guns can be lethal, and shooting in a crowded area can be extremely dangerous.
Anyone shooting in such circumstances better be prepared to justify their actions to the law and to society, irregardless whether they are police or not.
Was it worth putting bystanders lives at risk?
[/quote]

the shooting was terribly executed, but it was totally necessary for the cops to shoot. they approached the guy(who had already been told to them he had murdered a guy and had a gun) and he turned around and drew his gun aiming at the police. they were absolutely in the right to shoot him, its just how effectve they were at it that is in question.

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346986443' post='2479659']
FP, 90% of all shootings that occur in real life happen in close quarters, less than ten feet. That is the reason for 15 feet range marking. Accuracy on all bullets lessen at distance, especially handguns with the shorter barrels, shorter barrels equals less rifling in the barrel and less accuracy in the gun plus the effect of minor movement of the hand is exaggerated by the short barrel of a handgun. Naturally a rifle is much more accurate.
[/quote]

firstly, Ed that is entirely wrong about guns. They do not become more accurate with longer barrels. A barrel a few inches long is long enough(if using a proper twist rate) for the rifling to engage the bullet and spin it adequately. a gun with a 3 inch barrel and the same with a 6 inch barrel should be able to get similar sized groupings of shots.

the difference being that a longer barrel gives the bullet more time to accelerate, thus shooting faster, thus a flatter ballistic path. this means the bullet wont drop as much over a longer distance, but if properly trained for, compensated in techniques is not a hindrance to accurate shooting within the rounds capabilities. If the gun is aimed correctly to compensate for drop(necessary in any gun), the bullets should land in a similar sized pattern.

More importantly, the longer barrels can give a greater distance between the front and back sights, which can allow for more precise shooting.

regardless, training should absolutely include ranges out to 50 ft. As it is, their requirements are pathetic.

[quote]
Have you considered the difference in firing at a piece of paper in a range and firing at a human being? Not only the difficulty of being fired upon yourself, having to control a weapon while trying to avoid being shot, but the possibility of taking anothers life. These police need reprimanded and maybe even fired for their choice of returning fire in a situation with so many bystanders present, not for their ability to shoot or their aim.

ed
[/quote]

there is a difference, yes. but the only thing that you have left in a stressful scenario is the muscle memory and ingrained training from repeated practice. This doesnt happen from going to the range once a year and shooting 50 shots, which dont even have to be marked on accuracy. they are passed if the miss the paper less than 12 times. that is the equivalent of letting people drive semi trucks after showing they can start the truck in a parking lot and drive in a circle.

[Jesus_lol]

This is a very informative interview, done as an AMA(ask me anything) from the gun subsection on reddit. the person answering questions is a confirmed NYPD police officer, and answers lots of questions about training standards, typical performance, etc.

[url="http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/yxx0w/nypd_officer_ama_all_questions_regarding_12lb/"]http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/yxx0w/nypd_officer_ama_all_questions_regarding_12lb/[/url]



the 12 lb trigger pull is very significant. it might not seem like it to a non shooter, but these are triggers modified to be more than twice as hard to pull as stock. in handgun shooting, trigger pull is very important for accuracy, as heavy or bad trigger pull will pull the gun in one direction when you pull the trigger, and especially in quick fire, make accuracy nearly impossible.

think about picking up a gallon and a half of milk/water with a single finger curl, then imagine doing that repeatedly on a gun that weighs less than 2 pounds(6 times lighter than the trigger), and add in recoil(40cal Smith and Wesson has a very sharp recoil) and think about how accurate you could possibly be.

Highly trained marksmen would shoot way worse than they are capable with such a gun. the NYPD are anything but highly trained.

[Nihil Obstat]

When my mom was doing her police training, one of the last firearms training exercises before they qualified was pretty epic. They took the entire class, probably 15-20 people, to the training building, basically a big warehouse that can be set up however. Had them all stand single file, on arm on the shoulder of the person in front of them. Warehouse/training building is pitch black. They all walk in, still single file, until the training sergeant tells them to stop and turn 90 degrees right. All they were told is that it was a firearms exercise.
Then they wait. Probably 5-10 minutes, in the pitch black, no sound, nothing.

Then suddenly bright lights come on, flashing I think, music is just blaring, and there are bad guy targets in front of them. The idea was they were just all supposed to shoot as quickly and effectively as they could. My mom told me she emptied all three of her mags without even realizing; it was just all muscle memory. Thought she had only finished one, but she looked down and had two more empty ones at her feet.