Supersizing Venial Sin

[Jaime]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1347393940' post='2481424']
The "Really?" was the ironic part of what I posted (and to be more precise it was meant as "Seriously?" or "Are you serious?". The rest was straight, unless you were being ironic?

I do mean what I said ... there is a "common senseness" that needs to be applied.

I just wanted to clarify before someone thinks I was being ironic in my entire statement ... I was not.
[/quote]


I was the one who was being ironic and you weren't picking up on it. I don't think stealing a nickel will send you to hell

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347405843' post='2481488']
I was the one who was being ironic and you weren't picking up on it. I don't think stealing a nickel will send you to hell
[/quote]


[color=#222222][font=Arial', 'sans-serif][size=3]If stealing a nickel will send one to hell, then there is no grave matter (presupposing that one did indeed have full knowledge and give full consent); hence while all stealing is contrary to the commandment, not all stealing is grave matter and it follows that not all offences against all the ten commandments are of necessity thus grave matter. However grave matter per se, is related always to the ten commandments.[/size][/font][/color]

[quote][b]CarmenChristi[/b] "[color=black][font=Arial', 'sans-serif][size=3]Common sense has to come into play here. This is common sense. Not a diminishment of responsibility, but a common sense judgement on gravity. To say that stealing a gummy bear (a small one -- not the big ones that I've seen) is grave matter just serves to affirm the scrupulosity that a lot of people have on the phorum, and it is something we all should watch out for. [b]It really minimizes God's abundant mercy, and serves to reinforce the image of a punishing, severe, mean God."[/b] [/quote][/size][/font][/color]

[color=black][font=Arial', 'sans-serif][size=3]St Albert in the Ancient Rule of Carmel (Article 20) “See that the bounds of common sense are not exceeded, however, for common sense is the guide of all the virtues”[/size][/font][/color]

[color=black][font=Arial', 'sans-serif][size=3]And I wholeheartedly agree that scrupulosity and inclined towards it is a minimization of The Loving Mercy of The Lord and embracing a concept of “a punishing, severe and mean God”. Also, possibly the risk of evangelization conveying incorrect Catholic teaching through Catholics not grasping what indeed The Church does teach.[/size][/font][/color]

Edited September 12, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347405843' post='2481488']
I was the one who was being ironic and you weren't picking up on it. I don't think stealing a nickel will send you to hell
[/quote]

Ok I apologize (lol). Really, really apologize.

Ya know ... unluckily there ARE people who WILL argue that stealing a nickel will send you to hell.

Ah Jaime you just gave me a laugh ... about myself. And my (spanish) inability to pick up irony on the 1st shot (well -- I've gotten better ... but at home irony wasn't used at all; what I picked up I picked up from my classmates).

I also have to say that I would probably be the one to bite if you said "I have a beautiful one-of-a-kind bridge to sell you...dirt cheap."

Edited September 12, 2012 by cmariadiaz

[Jaime]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1347409980' post='2481505']
[color=#222222][font=Arial', 'sans-serif][size=3]If stealing a nickel will send one to hell, then there is no grave matter (presupposing that one did indeed have full knowledge and give full consent); hence while all stealing is contrary to the commandment, not all stealing is grave matter and it follows that not all offences against all the ten commandments are of necessity thus grave matter.[/size][/font][/color]

[/size][/font][/color]


[/quote]


I cannot disagree more. All stealing is grave matter no matter how small. Will stealing a grape at the supermarket send you to hell? I don't believe so but then those decisions are made at a higher pay grade. Where are you going to make the distinctions on the 10 commandments? How about adultery? Sex is certainly breaking the commandment but are you going to argue that a lingering kiss with your friend's spouse isn't a sin of grave matter? Ok where do you stop then? When does it cross the line? Making out for 5 minutes? 10? The breaking of any of the 10 commandments is grave matter. There isn't "an offence" the 10 commandments that isn't grave matter. That does not mean that it is automatically a mortal sin. You cannot discern between what is grave matter and what is not. The Church does that for us. We don't.

[cmaD2006]

BarbTherese I think you meant to quote me (cmariadiaz) not carmenchristi .... ya close -- but got the wrong user

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1347384459' post='2481348']
I'm pretty sure [i]any[/i] sin can be connected to the 10 commandments. It should be noted that not any sin, even directly against the 10 commandments, is necessarily mortal.
[/quote]
I agree. We are not under the Old Law, but The New. We no longer enslaved by the letter of The Law, but released into the freedom of its Spirit. In this Spirit of The Law, The Church discerns three conditions for mortal sin, primarily but not only grave matter. The Lord and His Spirit to the Glory of The Father as revealed in and to The Church is Abundantly Merciful as CarmenChristi pointed out. Jesus in His Sermon on The Mount said the following and the whole Chapter is worth the read.

[quote]Matthew Ch 5 : 21 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [u][b]But I say to you[/b], that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment[/u]. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, [u]Thou Fool[/u], shall be in danger of hell fire. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=23#x"][23][/url] If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=24#x"][24][/url] Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=25#x"][25][/url] Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.[/quote]

At the time of Jesus, the Jewish people were very careful to keep the letter of The Law and they had a myriad of 'sub laws' on how to keep The Law. Jesus points out that it is The Spirit of The Law that is prime. The only thing The Law can tell us is that we are miserable sinners constantly offending. What can rescue us?

[quote] St Paul to The Romans Chapter 7 : [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=14#x"][14][/url] For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=15#x"][15][/url] For that which I work, I understand not. For [u]I do not that good which I will[/u]; but the evil which I hate, that I do.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=16#x"][16][/url] If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=17#x"][17][/url] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=18#x"][18][/url] For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=19#x"][19][/url] For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=20#x"][20][/url] Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=21#x"][21][/url] I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=22#x"][22][/url] For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man: [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=23#x"][23][/url] But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members.[b] [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=24#x"][24][/url] Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=52&ch=7&l=25#x"][25][/url] [/b][b]The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord.[/b] Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin. [/quote]

The Grace of The Lord and His Loving Mercy is poured forth abundantly into His Church.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1347411106' post='2481514']
BarbTherese I think you meant to quote me (cmariadiaz) not carmenchristi .... ya close -- but got the wrong user
[/quote]

Thank you and sorry, and my apologies! (I have tremendous problems posting on Phatmass and I dont know why - and a part reason for many mistakes, not an excuse. What takes me 5 mins to post elsewhere, takes me 20 mins on Phatmass. I have problems with the font and sizing, editing. And if a try to post a link, its a nightmare of editing and re-editing and sometimes my concentration is on form not content - and again, reason not an excuse. Apologies once more. Phatmass too takes ages to load etc. for me - not so on other sites. I will try to post into another forum and see if I can discern why I have so many time consuming probems.)

Edited September 12, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347410922' post='2481511']
I cannot disagree more. All stealing is grave matter no matter how small. Will stealing a grape at the supermarket send you to hell? I don't believe so but then those decisions are made at a higher pay grade. Where are you going to make the distinctions on the 10 commandments? How about adultery? Sex is certainly breaking the commandment but are you going to argue that a lingering kiss with your friend's spouse isn't a sin of grave matter? Ok where do you stop then? When does it cross the line? Making out for 5 minutes? 10? The breaking of any of the 10 commandments is grave matter. There isn't "an offence" the 10 commandments that isn't grave matter. That does not mean that it is automatically a mortal sin. You cannot discern between what is grave matter and what is not. The Church does that for us. We don't.
[/quote]

Common sense, informed by The Church, tells one what is grave matter and what is not. If I knowingly and willingly steal five cents from a millionaire because I need another five cents to buy something to eat because I am hungry, are you saying that this is mortal sin? That is, in my example, your understanding of grave matter per se (stealing), full knowledge and full consent are present and thus it would be a mortal sin in your understanding?
Ideally we should always keep the commandments and not to do so is serious, rather it is not necessarily "grave matter" as a theological definition as The Church teaches and the first condition for mortal sin as The Church teaches.
I have to go, I have a day ahead of me. 10.58 am on Wednesday 12th September here.

Edit: Obviously, not all offences against the ten commandments are of necessity grave matter:

Catholic Catechism:
[b]1862[/b] One commits [i]venial sin[/i] when,[u][b] in a less serious matter[/b][/u], he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

Edited September 12, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Jaime]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1347413310' post='2481529']
Common sense, informed by The Church, tells one what is grave matter and what is not. If I knowingly and willingly steal five cents from a millionaire because I need another five cents to buy something to eat because I am hungry, are you saying that this is mortal sin? That is, in my example, your understanding of grave matter per se (stealing), full knowledge and full consent are present and thus it would be a mortal sin in your understanding?
Ideally we should always keep the commandments and not to do so is serious, rather it is not necessarily "grave matter" as a theological definition as The Church teaches and the first condition for mortal sin as The Church teaches.
I have to go, I have a day ahead of me. 10.58 am on Wednesday 12th September here.
[/quote]

Sorry but common sense does not define grave matter. The Church does.

[quote][i]Grave matter[/i] is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."[sup]132[/sup] The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger. [/quote]

Where does it say anything about common sense? It doesn't. The Church says that there are some sins that are graver than others. But this idea that we can discern what is grave and what isn't is really a slippery and dangerous slope.

[BarbTherese]

I am not meaning to convey, which is why I have quoted the CCC and/or Scripture so often, that common sense alone can define grave matter without common sense being informed by Grace/the cardinal virtue of prudence and what The Church teaches. I would certainly hope that in all my posts at all times, the presupposition of Grace and what The Church teaches is always present. "Without Me, you can do nothing" (not even exercise common sense - or perhaps I should have said Catholic common sense/Prudence). John Ch15 " [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=15&l=4#x"][4][/url] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=15&l=5#x"][5][/url] I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: [u][b]for without me you can do nothing."[/b][/u]
Catholic Catechism:
[b]1862[/b] One commits [i]venial sin[/i] when,[u][b][u] in a less serious matter[/u][/b][/u], he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

To discern what is a "less serious matter" etc. - as above - my common sense informed by Grace and the cardinal virtue of prudence with what The Church teaches will tell me whether a matter is seriously against the moral law, or whether it is less serious. Common sense informed by Grace and what The Church teaches tells me that to steal six cents from a millionaire because I need another six cents to buy something to eat because I am hungry is not a mortal sin condemning my soul to Hell to eternity. Nevertheless, it is stealing and stealing is a sin and against the moral law and all sin should be avoided. However, it would not be grave matter and therefore not mortal sin rather venial sin, which The Lord in His Great Mercy forgives in many ways outside of the Sacrament of Penance, but a good habit to get into confessing venial sins also.

Probably my last post into this thread. Thank you all for the sharing!

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347393663' post='2481421']
I can think of a half a dozen examples of sin that cannot be connected just off the top of my head. All I have to do is go back to my first confession as a kid

I was mean to my sister (no commandment)
I lied to my teacher (no commandment)
I ate the last piece of cake and didn't wash the plate. It goes on and on. Venial sin is venial It cannot be upgraded
[/quote]

Example 1: 5th commandment, which, in addition to murder, also forbids hatred, anger, violence, etc... (being mean included)
Example 2: Um - 8th commandment? Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor. This means, Thou Shalt Not Lie To Thy Neighbor. A neighbor doesn't mean next-door neighbor - it means anyone.
Example 3: Not necessarily a sin at all. Did your parents tell you to and you disobeyed? Then that's against the 4th Commandment.

Keep 'em coming - I can do this all day!

Oh - for example 2, before you go there - it also covers things like detraction, calumny, slander, etc... But "false witness" means lying.

Just wanted to add - a commandment doesn't need to say, "Thou Shalt Not Lie to Thy 1st Grade Teacher" in order for that specific sin to be connected to it.

Edited September 12, 2012 by fides' Jack

[Jaime]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1347487003' post='2481807']
Example 1: 5th commandment, which, in addition to murder, also forbids hatred, anger, violence, etc... (being mean included)
Example 2: Um - 8th commandment? Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor. This means, Thou Shalt Not Lie To Thy Neighbor. A neighbor doesn't mean next-door neighbor - it means anyone.
Example 3: Not necessarily a sin at all. Did your parents tell you to and you disobeyed? Then that's against the 4th Commandment.

Keep 'em coming - I can do this all day!

Oh - for example 2, before you go there - it also covers things like detraction, calumny, slander, etc... But "false witness" means lying.

Just wanted to add - a commandment doesn't need to say, "Thou Shalt Not Lie to Thy 1st Grade Teacher" in order for that specific sin to be connected to it.
[/quote]

So it is your opinion that all sin can be connected to the 10 commandments and therefore be grave matter. You are going against Church teaching on this one jack.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347512033' post='2481928']
So it is your opinion that all sin can be connected to the 10 commandments and therefore be grave matter. You are going against Church teaching on this one jack.
[/quote]

No, I didn't say that's my opinion. It's my opinion that all sins can be connected to the 10 commandments.

What am I "going against Church teaching" on?

[Jaime]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1347642074' post='2482353']
No, I didn't say that's my opinion. It's my opinion that all sins can be connected to the 10 commandments.

What am I "going against Church teaching" on?
[/quote]

When you say that all sin can be connected to the 10 commandments. The Church teaches something different.

[quote]
[b]1852[/b] There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The [i]Letter to the Galatians[/i] contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: "Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God."[sup]127[/sup]
[b]1853[/b] Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."[sup]128[/sup] But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.


[b]1858[/b] [i]Grave matter[/i] is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."[sup]132[/sup] The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

[/quote]

Not all sins are connected to the 10 commandments. If they were, they would all be of grave matter

[KnightofChrist]

[quote]
[url="http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/01/grave_matter.html"][b] JImmy Akin: Grave Matter[/b][/url]



A reader writes:
[indent=1]
About a month ago, you ran a post in which you talked about 2 of the 3 conditions necessary for mortal sin: adequate knowledge and deliberate consent. I was wondering if you would mind running a post that deals with the third: grave matter.
Specifically, I have the following question: in paragraph 1858, the Catechism states that grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments. However, I've also heard it said that all sins could be categorized as breaking one of the ten commandments. Does this mean that all sins involve grave matter? This doesn't seem correct to me. Could you offer some guidance as to how to determine what grave matter is?[/indent]

This is an area in which it seems that some further doctrinal development may occur. It is true that the Ten Commandments are usually identified as the key reference point for what counts as grave matter and that it is commonly thought that all sins can be related to the Ten Commandments in such a way that the sin is a violation of at least the principles that are behind the individual commandments.
This is not the only way of classifying sins, however. Sometimes the sins are classified based on which of the seven virtues they violate, which are then sometimes related back to the Ten Commandments.

While, if you consider them broadly enough, the principles behind the Ten Commandments may be capable of embracing every particular sin that is committed, it is not the case that every sin has grave matter. A classic example is that of theft. If you steal a dollar from a millionnaire, it isn't grave matter because he has plenty of money and the loss of a dollar will not gravely harm him. On the other hand, stealing a dollar from a beggar in the streets of Calcutta, who needs that dollar to survive, would indeed be grave matter, because it does grave harm to the individual.

Moral theologians handle this by saying that violating the commandment "Thou shalt not steal" has [i]potentially[/i] grave matter, but in some cases there is a [i]parvity[/i] (smallness) of matter that keeps it from being grave. Thus stealing a dollar can be grave (in the case of taking it from someone who will starve without it) but in other cases it is not grave because of the smallness of the harm that is done (as in taking it from a millionnaire).

In trying to relate this distinction to the traditional formulation that some sins have light matter (making them venial) while others have grave matter (making them potentially mortal), it is tempting to say that [i]any[/i] sin, if done to an extreme enough degree, will have grave matter, and thus that all sins are potentially grave, it being parvity of matter that prevents them from being grave.
I am inclined toward this view, and in the process of checking it out, I've asked others trained in moral theology whether they can think of any sins that [i]always[/i] have light matter, that [i]never[/i] could be grave no matter the extreme degree to which they are carried. They haven't been able to think of any, and neither have I. Thus I'm inclined to say everything is potentially grave if carried out in an extreme enough fashion.

Where the dividing line is crossed between grave and non-grave matter is not clear. The gravity of the matter is based on the harm done, and there is not an objective standard by which we can judge harm. There are certain clear and commonly agreed upon reference points (e.g., anything that would take a life would be grave; anything that would cause mild annoyance would be non-grave), but ultimately the assessment of gravity is a matter that can only be subjectively assessed, leading to the common rule that those who are non-scrupulous should go ahead and confess if there is doubt about whether a sin was grave and those who are scrupulous should confess only when they are sure that the sin was grave.!


Posted by [url="http://profile.typepad.com/jimmyakin"]Jimmy Akin[/url] in [url="http://www.jimmyakin.org/moral_theology/"]Moral Theology[/url]

[/quote]

Edited September 15, 2012 by KnightofChrist