Supersizing Venial Sin

[Nihil Obstat]

For an example on the opposite end of things, if a person suffers from scrupulosity, their conscience appears to tell them that nearly everything they do is mortally sinful. Clearly that is not the case, because most of what they are concerned about is not grave matter.

[BarbTherese]

[i]Grave matter constitutes only one condition for mortal sin. The other two conditions are full knowledge and full consent. Without all three conditions being present at the same time, there can be no mortal sin even if grave matter is involved. [/i]

[i]"Non grave matter" can never be upgraded to "grave matter". [/i]

[quote]
[i][url="http://www.catholicity.com/catechism/mortal_and_venial.html"]http://www.catholici...and_venial.html[/url][/i]

[i]My Note - Numbers in the headings refer to paragraphs in the Catholic Catechism[/i]
[b] [i]Mortal Sin Three Conditions (1857)[/i][/b]

[i]A mortal sin requires three conditions:[/i][list=1]
[*][i]The object is grave matter[/i]

[*][i]It is committed with full knowledge[/i]

[*][i]It is done with deliberate consent[/i]
[/list]
[b] [i]Grave Matter (1858)[/i][/b]

[i]Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments. Jesus said, "Do not kill. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not bear false witness. Do not defraud. Honor your father and your mother" (Mk 10:19). Some sins are more grave than others. Murder is greater than thefts. Violence against parents is greater than against a stranger.[/i]
[b] [i]Knowledge and Consent (1859-1860)[/i][/b]

[i]Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes that the person knows that the act is sinful and is opposed to God's law. It also requires a deliberate consent which is a personal choice. Feigned ignorance or hardness of heart increase the voluntariness.[/i]
[i]Unintentional ignorance can diminish or remove grave imputability. However, no one is ignorant of the moral law written on the heart. Many factors (feelings, passions, external pressure, emotional disorders) can also diminish personal freedom. Sins of malice (a deliberate choice of evil) are the greatest.[/i]
[b] [i]Venial Sins (1862-1863)[/i][/b]

[i]A person commits a venial sin in two cases:[/i][list=1]
[*][i]When he does not observe God's law in a less serious matter[/i]

[*][i]When he did not have full knowledge or give full consent in a grave matter[/i]
[/list]
[i]Venial sins show disordered affections and impede the person's progress in virtue. If deliberate and unrepented, they dispose the person to mortal sins. However "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace or friendship with God" (Pope John Paul II). "When he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. However, a number of light objects makes a great mass. What then is our hope? Above all, confession" (St. Augustine).[/i]

[i][/quote][/i]

[i]In the example given by CarmenChristi, "Jim" is guilty of grave matter in his motivation and intention. We are not under an obligation to attend Mass on a Friday, only on Sunday. "Jim" is genuinely convinced that Friday is the day of weekly obligation and decides he is tired of going to Mass every week on a Friday. In missing Mass on Friday there is no sin involved; however, because "Jim's" intention and motivation was to in fact miss Mass deliberately on a day he believed to be our weekly obligation celebrating The Resurrection, he has grave matter of intention only. For this grave matter to become mortal sin, he must have full knowledge and full consent to the grave matter i.e. his intention. [/i]

[i]Catholic Catechism:[/i]
[u][b]THE MORALITY OF HUMAN ACTS[/b][/u]
[b][i]1749[/i][/b][i] Freedom makes man a moral subject. When he acts deliberately, man is, so to speak, the father of his acts. Human acts, that is, acts that are freely chosen in consequence of a judgment of conscience, can be morally evaluated. They are either good or evil. [/i]
[b][i]I. THE SOURCES OF MORALITY[/i][/b][i] [/i]
[i][b]1750[/b] The morality of human acts depends on: [/i]
[i]- the object chosen; ([color=#0000ff]"Jim" chose to miss Mass on Friday- no sin)[/color][/i]
[i]- the end in view or the intention;[color=#0000ff] (To miss Mass on a day of obligation - grave matter)[/color][/i]
[i]- the circumstances of the action. [color=#0000ff]("Jim" basically was just tired of going to Mass on Friday as he thought he was obliged to do and refrained from going - grave matter)[/color][/i]
[i][color=#0000ff]If he has a poor understanding of The Faith then the end in view and also the circumstances may preclude full knowledge and hence no mortal sin.[/color][/i]
[i]Note - all brackets and in blue font are mine[/i]

Edited September 10, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347237782' post='2480817']
That position makes every single sin mortal
[/quote]

Not necessarily. It depends on what exactly one's conscience is telling one what one should do and what one actually does. If my conscience is telling me I should not steal five cents and I steal it nonetheless, it is not mortal sin since grave matter is not involved. The danger with disregarding venial sin and not striving to avoid it as best one may be able is that it weakens charity; however no amount of venial sin can constitute mortal sin condemning the soul. But uncaring continual venial sin will certainly possibly lead to a disposition uncaring about mortal sin and perhaps to mortal sin itself.
[b]1863 [/b]Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='TheUbiquitous' timestamp='1347226124' post='2480749']
But the conscience is the herald of God. By choosing one thing over what the herald of God tells you to do --- God tells you to do --- you place something at a higher level than God. From here, "false gods" and "idolatry" follows.
[/quote]


"Idolatry" is to give that worship due to God to a "false god". If I steal five cents and know it is wrongful and against my conscience, I am choosing knowingly and deliberately to offend against the moral law in a non grave matter and certainly one such venial sin will not, as a consequence, lead to idolatry, while continually offending against the moral law in non grave matters may lead to grave matter (through a total weakening of charity) and mortal sin or grave offences against the moral law with full knowledge and full consent.
[b]2113 [/b]Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.

My note: Only the state of mortal sin is "incompatible with communion with God". To some degree or other - great or small, venial sin weakens that communion. God forgives venial sin in many ways either within or outside of the Sacrament of Penance - and finally, there is Purgatory .

Edited September 10, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Note that in my post [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/123756-supersizing-venial-sin/page__st__20#entry2480902"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/123756-supersizing-venial-sin/page__st__20#entry2480902[/url]

.....I thought something didn't read right and so double checked......

I pasted from a Catholic website, and it reads "emotional disorders" under "[u][b]Knowledge and Consent[/b][/u]"; however, the Catholic Catechism states "pathological disorders" - there is a difference. Pathological disorders encompasses all mental and emotional disorders and has a broader scope than "emotional disorders".

[b][url="javascript:openWindow('cr/1860.htm');"]1860[/url][/b] [i]Unintentional ignorance[/i] can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or [u][b]pathological disorders[/b][/u]. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

[Jaime]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1347257350' post='2480906']
Not necessarily. It depends on what exactly one's conscience is telling one what one should do and what one actually does. If my conscience is telling me I should not steal five cents and I steal it nonetheless, it is not mortal sin since grave matter is not involved. The danger with disregarding venial sin and not striving to avoid it as best one may be able is that it weakens charity; however no amount of venial sin can constitute mortal sin condemning the soul. But uncaring continual venial sin will certainly possibly lead to a disposition uncaring about mortal sin and perhaps to mortal sin itself.
[b]1863 [/b]Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.
[/quote]

Well first of all you seem to think that there is a distinction on levels of stealing. I'm not sure the Church makes that distinction. Stealing is grave matter period. Stealing a nickel from someone who has nothing can be mortally sinful.

Second ubiquitous is stating that if you put anything above God, you are breaking the first commandment automatically. Every time we sin, we put something above God. Every time.

[carmenchristi]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347276377' post='2480940']
Well first of all you seem to think that there is a distinction on levels of stealing. I'm not sure the Church makes that distinction. Stealing is grave matter period. Stealing a nickel from someone who has nothing can be mortally sinful.
[/quote]

Sure, stealing a nickel from someone who has nothing can be gravely sinful. But if I steal a nickel from my parents' loose change jar, I can hardly say that is grave matter. Or what if I steal a gummy bear from those choose your own candy barrels in the store? No, I shouldn't do it, but will I go to Hell for it?
[b]"[color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]One must also take into account who is wronged"[/font][/color][/b]

[Jaime]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1347281618' post='2480957']
. Or what if I steal a gummy bear from those choose your own candy barrels in the store? No, I shouldn't do it, but will I go to Hell for it?
[b]"[color=#282828][font=Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]One must also take into account who is wronged"[/font][/color][/b]
[/quote]

yes... yes you will

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347276377' post='2480940']
Well first of all you seem to think that there is a distinction on levels of stealing. I'm not sure the Church makes that distinction. Stealing is grave matter period. Stealing a nickel from someone who has nothing can be mortally sinful.

Second ubiquitous is stating that if you put anything above God, you are breaking the first commandment automatically. Every time we sin, we put something above God. Every time.
[/quote]

Agreed that all sin is putting something before and therefore above God in our life and contrary to the first commandment - in sinning mortally, our relationship with The Lord and His Church is completely broken. This broken relationship for Catholics can only be reinstated through a good Confession (also see [url="http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=433671&postcount=2"]http://forums.cathol...671&postcount=2[/url] ) Our relationship with The Lord and His Church is weakened by venial sin and charity in the soul is weakened. I agree too that grave matter can be determined by who is harmed or offended and how seriously. In other words, stealing 5 cents from a poor person could indeed be grave matter. There are still two other requirements for grave matter to become mortal sin i.e. full knowledge and full consent. Rather often, Catholics can confuse grave matter alone as mortal sin.
Undoubtedly a spiritually sensitive soul rich in charity will strive to avoid even venial sin and will strive always to put The Lord and His Will first in their lives. Be this as it may, it is important that the person understands that venial sin is not mortal sin and why.
Stealing on all levels is always wrongand against the Moral Law. See the CCC for venial sin and mortal sin and how The Church distinguishes between the two and why. I think I may have already posted this, unsure.

Edited September 11, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1347281618' post='2480957']
Sure, stealing a nickel from someone who has nothing can be gravely sinful. But if I steal a nickel from my parents' loose change jar, I can hardly say that is grave matter. Or what if I steal a gummy bear from those choose your own candy barrels in the store? No, I shouldn't do it, but will I go to Hell for it?
[b]"[color=#282828][font=Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif']One must also take into account who is wronged"[/font][/color][/b]
[/quote]
[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347313973' post='2481096']
yes... yes you will
[/quote]

Really? I still think that the definition of grave matter has not been met. Again ... if I stole 5 cents out of the hands of a beggar, then that's different (graver) than if I stole 5 cents from a millionaire. Or if I stole a gummy bear from a large store.

Common sense has to come into play here. This is common sense. Not a diminishment of responsibility, but a common sense judgement on gravity. To say that stealing a gummy bear (a small one -- not the big ones that I've seen) is grave matter just serves to affirm the scrupulosity that a lot of people have on the phorum, and it is something we all should watch out for. It really minimizes God's abundant mercy, and serves to reinforce the image of a punishing, severe, mean God.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347158473' post='2480424']
my point exactly
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure [i]any[/i] sin can be connected to the 10 commandments. It should be noted that not any sin, even directly against the 10 commandments, is necessarily mortal.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1347384459' post='2481348']
I'm pretty sure [i]any[/i] sin can be connected to the 10 commandments. [/quote]

That is an interesting thought. I am trying to think of anything that is not, but either because of a framing heuristic, or because you are right, I am drawing a blank.

[Jaime]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1347359356' post='2481259']
Agreed that all sin is putting something before and therefore above God in our life and contrary to the first commandment - in sinning mortally, our relationship with The Lord and His Church is completely broken. This broken relationship for Catholics can only be reinstated through a good Confession (also see [url="http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=433671&postcount=2"]http://forums.cathol...671&postcount=2[/url] ) Our relationship with The Lord and His Church is weakened by venial sin and charity in the soul is weakened. I agree too that grave matter can be determined by who is harmed or offended and how seriously. In other words, stealing 5 cents from a poor person could indeed be grave matter. There are still two other requirements for grave matter to become mortal sin i.e. full knowledge and full consent. Rather often, Catholics can confuse grave matter alone as mortal sin.
Undoubtedly a spiritually sensitive soul rich in charity will strive to avoid even venial sin and will strive always to put The Lord and His Will first in their lives. Be this as it may, it is important that the person understands that venial sin is not mortal sin and why.
Stealing on all levels is always wrongand against the Moral Law. See the CCC for venial sin and mortal sin and how The Church distinguishes between the two and why. I think I may have already posted this, unsure.
[/quote]

My point was not all sin is of grave matter but all sin puts our actions ahead of God.


[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1347379617' post='2481324']
Really? I still think that the definition of grave matter has not been met. Again ... if I stole 5 cents out of the hands of a beggar, then that's different (graver) than if I stole 5 cents from a millionaire. Or if I stole a gummy bear from a large store.

Common sense has to come into play here. This is common sense. Not a diminishment of responsibility, but a common sense judgement on gravity. To say that stealing a gummy bear (a small one -- not the big ones that I've seen) is grave matter just serves to affirm the scrupulosity that a lot of people have on the phorum, and it is something we all should watch out for. It really minimizes God's abundant mercy, and serves to reinforce the image of a punishing, severe, mean God.
[/quote]

This is a great example of how being ironic gets lost in the interwebs.

[Jaime]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1347384459' post='2481348']
I'm pretty sure [i]any[/i] sin can be connected to the 10 commandments. It should be noted that not any sin, even directly against the 10 commandments, is necessarily mortal.
[/quote]

I can think of a half a dozen examples of sin that cannot be connected just off the top of my head. All I have to do is go back to my first confession as a kid

I was mean to my sister (no commandment)
I lied to my teacher (no commandment)
I ate the last piece of cake and didn't wash the plate. It goes on and on. Venial sin is venial It cannot be upgraded

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1347393438' post='2481420']
This is a great example of how being ironic gets lost in the interwebs.
[/quote]

The "Really?" was the ironic part of what I posted (and to be more precise it was meant as "Seriously?" or "Are you serious?". The rest was straight, unless you were being ironic?

I do mean what I said ... there is a "common senseness" that needs to be applied.

I just wanted to clarify before someone thinks I was being ironic in my entire statement ... I was not.

Edited September 11, 2012 by cmariadiaz