Voter Id Laws: A Fake Solution To A Fake Problem

[Slappo]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346691237' post='2477889']
None of those things really require an ID. When I worked in a grocery store the policy was to card anyone who look like they were under 27 and I don't recall ever being asked to produce an ID for any job that I've ever had.


[url="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/08/voter_id_laws_why_do_minorities_lack_id_to_show_at_the_polls_.html"]http://www.slate.com...the_polls_.html[/url]
[/quote]

If you were not asked to produce identification for a job that you've had, you were either not an employee (some form of contracted worker which would be issued a 1099-MISC form), or your employer did not go through the proper hiring procedures. An I-9 form needs to be completed, which includes requiring two forms of identification, one for group A (SSN, Greencard etc.) and B (Driver's License/State ID etc.), or one form of ID from group C (Passport, etc).

Contracted workers who are paid in cash, don't have a bank account, and rent rather than buy a house might actually not need an ID for anything. Now... telling me that's [b]25% of a group of individuals [/b]is BS but... it's possible that there are people out there who wouldn't have a form of ID.

[4588686]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1346790970' post='2478391']
If you were not asked to produce identification for a job that you've had, you were either not an employee (some form of contracted worker which would be issued a 1099-MISC form), or your employer did not go through the proper hiring procedures. An I-9 form needs to be completed, which includes requiring two forms of identification, one for group A (SSN, Greencard etc.) and B (Driver's License/State ID etc.), or one form of ID from group C (Passport, etc).

Contracted workers who are paid in cash, don't have a bank account, and rent rather than buy a house might actually not need an ID for anything. Now... telling me that's [b]25% of a group of individuals [/b]is BS but... it's possible that there are people out there who wouldn't have a form of ID.
[/quote][quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1346790970' post='2478391']
If you were not asked to produce identification for a job that you've had, you were either not an employee (some form of contracted worker which would be issued a 1099-MISC form), or your employer did not go through the proper hiring procedures. An I-9 form needs to be completed, which includes requiring two forms of identification, one for group A (SSN, Greencard etc.) and B (Driver's License/State ID etc.), or one form of ID from group C (Passport, etc).

Contracted workers who are paid in cash, don't have a bank account, and rent rather than buy a house might actually not need an ID for anything. Now... telling me that's [b]25% of a group of individuals [/b]is BS but... it's possible that there are people out there who wouldn't have a form of ID.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.theroot.com/buzz/25-percent-blacks-dont-have-id-voting-0"]http://www.theroot.com/buzz/25-percent-blacks-dont-have-id-voting-0[/url]

[4588686]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346772143' post='2478260']
im 31 and still get carded. i have also seen other's get carded. so people over 40 don't get carded. ok, well how did they buy beer 10 years ago? oh they needed an id. how did they get a job to pay for the beer? oh they needed an id. just because you didn't do it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. i mean are you not the one who just said taking one person personal story on a subject hardly amounts to fact? your going against your own train of thought here hasan.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you look young. Maybe you go to a store where their policy is to card for anyone who looks like they are under 40. Maybe the cashier finds your refusal to capitalize infuriating and cards you just to try to take up a few more seconds of the precious time you have on this earth as you inevitably slide towards death's door.

I'm not going against my own train of thought because I am not claiming that wherever you go you do not need an ID to buy alcohol. But you listed a bunch of things, like buying beer, porn, R rated movie tickets, et cetera that you really don't need an ID for if you are obviously out of your 20's. You refuse to believe that somebody could not have an ID and not be a social outcast. That;s obviously not true unless roughly 25% of black Americans are modern day Raskolnikovs. There are plenty of reasons why a reasonable human being could get through without needing an ID in their daily lives. If they have been regularly employed, live in an urban area, and are past the age of, say, 30, then they could probably get by pretty easily without one.

[QUOTE]maybe liberals have this horrible opinion of black people, it sure seems like it.[/QUOTE]

I have black family, so you really don't want to go chugging along with this pathetic attempt at misdirection.

[QUOTE]they think black people are so lazy and so worthless that black people don't have jobs, buy alcohol, have houses or apartments, drive vehicles, ever have a check to cash, have bank accounts and so on and so on. the fact is you need id to do those things. do liberals assume all black people don't have jobs, don't have checks to cash, have never used a checkbook, don't live in apartments or houses and don't drive cars? that's exactly what liberals are saying. but your right, its the gop which is trying to hold down black people because they think of them like everyone else and assume not all black people have no jobs, no places to live, no cars, no checkbooks, never have checks to cash.[/QUOTE]

That's actually not what I'm saying. The best estimates are that roughly 25% of black American's do not have the sort of ID that you need for many of these voting laws. You are trying to prove that is impossible with your sloppy logic.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346808523' post='2478525']
Maybe you look young. Maybe you go to a store where their policy is to card for anyone who looks like they are under 40. Maybe the cashier finds your refusal to capitalize infuriating and cards you just to try to take up a few more seconds of the precious time you have on this earth as you inevitably slide towards death's door.

I'm not going against my own train of thought because I am not claiming that wherever you go you do not need an ID to buy alcohol. But you listed a bunch of things, like buying beer, porn, R rated movie tickets, et cetera that you really don't need an ID for if you are obviously out of your 20's. You refuse to believe that somebody could not have an ID and not be a social outcast. That;s obviously not true unless roughly 25% of black Americans are modern day Raskolnikovs. There are plenty of reasons why a reasonable human being could get through without needing an ID in their daily lives. If they have been regularly employed, live in an urban area, and are past the age of, say, 30, then they could probably get by pretty easily without one.



I have black family, so you really don't want to go chugging along with this pathetic attempt at misdirection.



That's actually not what I'm saying. The best estimates are that roughly 25% of black American's do not have the sort of ID that you need for many of these voting laws. You are trying to prove that is impossible with your sloppy logic.
[/quote]

I have trouble believing that estimate. I would really like to see how they arrived at it.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346720868' post='2478097']
You are joking right? Mexican nationals voting in America would indeed be voter fraud, one must be an American citizen to vote in America, and the same goes for Mexico.

ed
[/quote]

None of my Mexican friends have ever voted that I'm aware of. In fact most of my hispanic friends rarely vote. I think that's probably true about the poor blacks too. And while the Mexicans may fake things in an attempt to collect welfare, or get food stamps, they aren't going to bother to fake things just to vote. What would they get out of that?

I think that probably the few that do vote, vote under their real names. They're not supposed to be voting but I don't think that it's the "voter fraud" that these laws are being passed around the country to protect against. Really, how many Mexican Nationals live in a state like Wisconsin? And how many of the people -- who don't have ID -- actually vote? I suspect that if you haven't made the effort to get ID then you're certainly not going to make the effort to vote. Even if somebody talked you into filling out a voter registration form.

Edited September 7, 2012 by southern california guy

[4588686]

[quote name='Mercy me' timestamp='1346819380' post='2478642']
I have trouble believing that estimate. I would really like to see how they arrived at it.
[/quote]

I think if you click the link you could find the study pretty quickly. If you really can't find it then I can try to track it down for you.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1346984764' post='2479634']
Really, how many Mexican Nationals live in a state like Wisconsin?
[/quote]

Well, Minnesota is a state like Wisconsin, and they're here.
[url="http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20760064"]Victim of I35W Bridge Collapse[/url]
[url="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2104613/posts"]Cottonwood school bus crash[/url]
[url="http://www.mncriminals.com/wordpress/index.php/2009/04/29/cocaine-pipeline-busted-in-minnesota/"]Cocaine Pipeline Bust[/url]
[url="http://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/161614985.html?refer=y"]Teenage girl killed outside her high school[/url]
[url="http://www.examiner.com/article/13-illegal-aliens-arrested-minnesota-on-their-way-to-work"]Thirteen arrested on their way to work[/url]

I realize that not all illegals are criminals (the first person, for example), but these are the ones I remember in the news.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1346988481' post='2479675']
Well, Minnesota is a state like Wisconsin, and they're here.
[url="http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20760064"]Victim of I35W Bridge Collapse[/url]
[url="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2104613/posts"]Cottonwood school bus crash[/url]
[url="http://www.mncriminals.com/wordpress/index.php/2009/04/29/cocaine-pipeline-busted-in-minnesota/"]Cocaine Pipeline Bust[/url]
[url="http://www.startribune.com/local/stpaul/161614985.html?refer=y"]Teenage girl killed outside her high school[/url]
[url="http://www.examiner.com/article/13-illegal-aliens-arrested-minnesota-on-their-way-to-work"]Thirteen arrested on their way to work[/url]

I realize that not all illegals are criminals (the first person, for example), but these are the ones I remember in the news.
[/quote]

Still even though there's a bit of crime I doubt that there are enough Mexicans in Wisconsin, and enough voting, to really skew the results. But I believe that a certain amount of cheating goes on in elections and that safe guards need to be put in place to keep people from voting multiple times, and under other peoples names. If nothing else the laws would give the voters the feeling that a fair and honest election was held.

[Era Might]

I haven't looked into this issue, but I'm inclined to be against calls for more IDs for the simple fact that it reinforces the government's control over politics and weakens the bonds of democracy. It's strange to me that at a time when Republicans are calling for government to go away, they're also calling for for more people to be entered into a central database so they can be easily scanned and identified and be required to justify themselves before this database.

Maybe it's just as well that the government takes more control here. If after 200 years of democracy we can't resolve these kinds of issues in ways other than strengthening a massive state power, then maybe the idea of democracy is dead anyway.

Sorry if I've gone off on a Winchester tangent.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Era Might

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1347977811' post='2483715']
I haven't looked into this issue, but I'm inclined to be against calls for more IDs for the simple fact that it reinforces the government's control over politics and weakens the bonds of democracy. It's strange to me that at a time when Republicans are calling for government to go away, they're also calling for for more people to be entered into a central database so they can be easily scanned and identified and be required to justify themselves before this database.

Maybe it's just as well that the government takes more control here. If after 200 years of democracy we can't resolve these kinds of issues in ways other than strengthening a massive state power, then maybe the idea of democracy is dead anyway.

Sorry if I've gone off on a Winchester tangent.
[/quote]It seems a pure democracy certainly does tend to promote the creation of a Massive State appealing to a dependent majority.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1347978788' post='2483719']
It seems a pure democracy certainly does tend to promote the creation of a Massive State appealing to a dependent majority.
[/quote]
Doesn't have to. Power can be decentralized. That's the essential idea of democracy, but centralizing things is always easier. "We have no king but caesar" and what not.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1347979554' post='2483727']
Doesn't have to. Power can be decentralized. That's the essential idea of democracy, but centralizing things is always easier. "We have no king but caesar" and what not.
[/quote]Never underestimate esurience when voting has power to acquire.

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1347978788' post='2483719']
It seems a pure democracy certainly does tend to promote the creation of a Massive State appealing to a dependent majority.
[/quote]

Actually, the only pure democracy that I can think of off hand, Athens, was kind of the exact opposite of that.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1348051438' post='2484100']
Actually, the only pure democracy that I can think of off hand, Athens, was kind of the exact opposite of that.
[/quote]

Not exactly opposite. Athens did grow into a massive state, an Empire for a short time. It controlled other Greek states and conquered other lands. It's been a long time since I've looked at Athens history so I can't remember if Athens' democracy was suspended during its expansion.

[Anomaly]

Read up on Athens. It was not a 'pure democracy', even for it's residents, much less for assimilated peoples.