Voter Id Laws: A Fake Solution To A Fake Problem

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346728429' post='2478146']
You had multiple incidents of people showing up, claiming to be somebody else, and trying to vote?
[/quote]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And, no it was not prosecuted but evidence was collected.

edit to add that I am going to try to find the investigative report out of South Florida. I really wish that I had printed it because I can't even remember the publication. I think that you will find it interesting in it if I can find it.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Mercy me

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346731143' post='2478156']
Re-reading the OP I quoted, there was no actual name calling. Yet reading through it again, I would have preferred name calling to what he implied that I (and others) were saying-that people who can't get an ID are leeches or losers followed by calling me (and others) reprehensible and pathetic. Granted, I said that not having an ID was an issue of laziness, but quickly got schooled on that by one of Hasan's many links. The poster I quoted is obviously seeing this thread as some sort of assertion of power, when it is a debate. I am learning things about this issue by following this thread, just as I hope other posters are as well. Rude blanket statements intended to cut down someone else for having a certain opinion are not really edifying or adding anything to this debate...at least not the kind of debate I am interested in.
[/quote]

I have found it best to stick to what is actually said- no more, and no less.

[Innocent]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346728255' post='2478145']

I think we should have a national test. The test will be part critical thinking skills, part economic theory, part budgetary policy, part foreign affairs, and part constitutional literacy, and if anybody scores below an 80 then floopy them, who are they to decide what sort of government they live under?
[/quote]

This is a very interesting idea. Would you seriously consider supporting such a measure?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346691237' post='2477889']
None of those things really require an ID. When I worked in a grocery store the policy was to card anyone who look like they were under 27 and I don't recall ever being asked to produce an ID for any job that I've ever had.


[url="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/08/voter_id_laws_why_do_minorities_lack_id_to_show_at_the_polls_.html"]http://www.slate.com...the_polls_.html[/url]
[/quote]

and this just proves you have no leg to stand on. your trying to say you don't need an id to get a job or to buy alcohol. i guess that whole we card philosophy thing must be my imagination. i guess when i am carded and i see other's carded for alcohol, well that must be my imagination.

this is a classic example of liberals arguing and there arguements make no sense. people are carded to buy alcohol. to sit here an say nope, they are not is either a blatent lie from you or your completely clueless on this subject. sorry but to claim you don't need any id to buy alcohol is just asinine.

[4588686]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346739020' post='2478189']
this is a classic example of liberals arguing and there arguements make no sense. people are carded to buy alcohol. to sit here an say nope, they are not is either a blatent lie from you or your completely clueless on this subject. sorry but to claim you don't need any id to buy alcohol is just asinine.
[/quote]


Right, well, what the floopy do I know. I just sold alcohol to people.


Huh. What was that, Hasan? You regularly sold alcohol to people as part of your job??? Huh, maybe you know something about this.

Let's try to break this down. You probably do get carded because you are probably young. If I was ever iffy on somebody's age, then I carded them. If somebody is, you know, like 50, I didn't have to card them. Stores set their own policy regarding what their cutoff is regarding who they will card to verify that they are over 21. Assuming they even bother to card.


Also, I'm really uncomfortable with somebody who doesn't know that you capitalize the first letter of a sentence being allowed to vote.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hasan

[4588686]

[quote name='Innocent' timestamp='1346733139' post='2478166']

This is a very interesting idea. Would you seriously consider supporting such a measure?
[/quote]

I wouldn't. If people are not allowed to participate in their government then the government isn't legitimate.

[4588686]

[quote name='Mercy me' timestamp='1346731607' post='2478158']
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. And, no it was not prosecuted but evidence was collected.

edit to add that I am going to try to find the investigative report out of South Florida. I really wish that I had printed it because I can't even remember the publication. I think that you will find it interesting in it if I can find it.
[/quote]'

I would. I've changed my mind before on this issue and I'm willing to change it again. But I'm looking for widespread evidence of actual fraud taking place.

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346730056' post='2478151']
You're just trolling now.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm not. If it's ok to exclude some part of the people from participating in their government then I want the standard to be serious. If we're going to start choosing who is and isn't good enough to vote then let's not half-ass it.


[QUOTE]There is enough anecdotal evidence that there is fraud or possibility of fraud. People were concerened when Motor Voter laws were passed. Additional concerns were raised in the 2000 elections.

The citizenry, had legitimate concerns. "Something is being done by our Government" to address concerns. The issue has been politicized by politicians, to garner votes or demonize the others.[/QUOTE]

Legitimate concern, yes. Fraud does take place. But when you measure the scale of the fraud vs the scale of people who would be excluded then you see a clear imbalance.

[QUOTE] It's a red herring that US Citizens find it extremely hard to obtain ID or the requirement is an onerous burden. Seriously, if you can't get an ID that's required to get a job, attend college, buy beer, rent a car, buy antihistamines, pawn jewelry, or sell scap metal, then there probably isn't a big loss in not getting your opinion registered.
Some ID is required to register to vote. Ther are reasons why felons and mentally incompetent can't vote. Here in Florida, they accept student cards, public assistance ID, credit cards, debit cards, as well as other I'd when you vote.

Voter ID laws serve to protect the integrity of the election system AND to protect people's confidence in the system and accept duly elected persons as legitimate, whether you liked them or not.
[/quote]

And I am not opposed a priori to id requirements. But some of these state laws have restrictions within the set of accepted ID's that are biased. For example, Wisconsin not accepting any form of actually existing student ID. If somebody is, for example, 40, and has been regularly employed they may well not need an ID. They won't get carded for an R rated movie or buy beer. There is an near endless combination of possible reasons why an individual may not have an ID and yes, it can be difficult to attain an ID. Not impossible, but difficult. And the point is not that these state bodies are making it impossible for certain groups to vote but that they are making is difficult for them to vote as opposed to other groups.

If we're going to start using laws to sift through worthy vs unworthy voters then let's get serious about it. Why is somebody voting who doesn't understand the importance of the Bush administration's unilateral withdrawal of the ABM treaty with Russia or the derivatives market?

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hasan

[TheUbiquitous]

As a state employee --- indeed, at the DMV --- I may be able to attest with some authority that there are many legitimate reasons why it is difficult to obtain a state ID. Here in California, for example, laws are rather restrictive about what constitutes proof of legal presence in the United States. There are only a few documents acceptable that a natural-born citizen is going to have.

[b]Protip:[/b] Your social security card is [i]useless[/i]. (Except as an extra requirement for commercial driver license, but that's a whole other ballgame.) School IDs are always ignored. PG&E may care about your electric bill, but we sure don't. We don't even care about proof of residency --- but we do need proof that you're legal in the U.S.

So, if you don't have one of these documents --- no law says you must have a birth certificate merely for living in the U.S. --- or if you lost it and need to get it replaced for whatever reason, you get to spend a substantial amount of time, and possibly a prohibitive amount of money for the very poor or unemployed, to obtain one of these documents, usually a birth certificate but sometimes a passport or military ID. Get Out the Vote campaigns, by either party, and by design, do not have this kind of turn-around time, and would undoubtedly be rendered less effective.

Not to mention the fact that the only State ID you can get must be obtained at a place open 39 hours a week, never on weekends. Even with an appointment you need time off work, &c, &c.

Getting an ID may be simple, but who are very poor --- or, for that matter, who live in the rural areas, of which California is chock-full --- it is not necessarily easy.

[center]----[/center]

All of this could still be, of course, advisable if there were evidence that adding IDs would appreciably decrease voter fraud. But then that takes evidence of voter fraud, and evidence that this will prevent that same voter fraud, and then proof that it will not needlessly inconvenience the broader public more than it helps them.

Edited September 4, 2012 by TheUbiquitous

[4588686]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-hE7tB-oN8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-hE7tB-oN8[/url]

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346745012' post='2478213']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-hE7tB-oN8[/media]
[/quote]

showing maddow is like showing limbugh. it does nothing except tune out the other side.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346739880' post='2478193']
Right, well, what the floopy do I know. I just sold alcohol to people.


Huh. What was that, Hasan? You regularly sold alcohol to people as part of your job??? Huh, maybe you know something about this.

Let's try to break this down. You probably do get carded because you are probably young. If I was ever iffy on somebody's age, then I carded them. If somebody is, you know, like 50, I didn't have to card them. Stores set their own policy regarding what their cutoff is regarding who they will card to verify that they are over 21. Assuming they even bother to card.


Also, I'm really uncomfortable with somebody who doesn't know that you capitalize the first letter of a sentence being allowed to vote.
[/quote]

im 31 and still get carded. i have also seen other's get carded. so people over 40 don't get carded. ok, well how did they buy beer 10 years ago? oh they needed an id. how did they get a job to pay for the beer? oh they needed an id. just because you didn't do it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. i mean are you not the one who just said taking one person personal story on a subject hardly amounts to fact? your going against your own train of thought here hasan.

maybe liberals have this horrible opinion of black people, it sure seems like it. they think black people are so lazy and so worthless that black people don't have jobs, buy alcohol, have houses or apartments, drive vehicles, ever have a check to cash, have bank accounts and so on and so on. the fact is you need id to do those things. do liberals assume all black people don't have jobs, don't have checks to cash, have never used a checkbook, don't live in apartments or houses and don't drive cars? that's exactly what liberals are saying. but your right, its the gop which is trying to hold down black people because they think of them like everyone else and assume not all black people have no jobs, no places to live, no cars, no checkbooks, never have checks to cash.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346739880' post='2478193']
Right, well, what the floopy do I know. I just sold alcohol to people.


Huh. What was that, Hasan? You regularly sold alcohol to people as part of your job??? Huh, maybe you know something about this.

Let's try to break this down. You probably do get carded because you are probably young. If I was ever iffy on somebody's age, then I carded them. If somebody is, you know, like 50, I didn't have to card them. Stores set their own policy regarding what their cutoff is regarding who they will card to verify that they are over 21. Assuming they even bother to card.


Also, I'm really uncomfortable with somebody who doesn't know that you capitalize the first letter of a sentence being allowed to vote.
[/quote]

im 31 and still get carded. i have also seen other's get carded. so people over 40 don't get carded. ok, well how did they buy beer 10 years ago? oh they needed an id. how did they get a job to pay for the beer? oh they needed an id. just because you didn't do it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. i mean are you not the one who just said taking one person personal story on a subject hardly amounts to fact? your going against your own train of thought here hasan.

maybe liberals have this horrible opinion of black people, it sure seems like it. they think black people are so lazy and so worthless that black people don't have jobs, buy alcohol, have houses or apartments, drive vehicles, ever have a check to cash, have bank accounts and so on and so on. the fact is you need id to do those things. do liberals assume all black people don't have jobs, don't have checks to cash, have never used a checkbook, don't live in apartments or houses and don't drive cars? that's exactly what liberals are saying. but your right, its the gop which is trying to hold down black people because they think of them like everyone else and assume not all black people have no jobs, no places to live, no cars, no checkbooks, never have checks to cash.
[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346740817' post='2478200']
No, I'm not. If it's ok to exclude some part of the people from participating in their government then I want the standard to be serious. If we're going to start choosing who is and isn't good enough to vote then let's not half-ass it.




Legitimate concern, yes. Fraud does take place. But when you measure the scale of the fraud vs the scale of people who would be excluded then you see a clear imbalance.



And I am not opposed a priori to id requirements. But some of these state laws have restrictions within the set of accepted ID's that are biased. For example, Wisconsin not accepting any form of actually existing student ID. If somebody is, for example, 40, and has been regularly employed they may well not need an ID. They won't get carded for an R rated movie or buy beer. There is an near endless combination of possible reasons why an individual may not have an ID and yes, it can be difficult to attain an ID. Not impossible, but difficult. And the point is not that these state bodies are making it impossible for certain groups to vote but that they are making is difficult for them to vote as opposed to other groups.

If we're going to start using laws to sift through worthy vs unworthy voters then let's get serious about it. Why is somebody voting who doesn't understand the importance of the Bush administration's unilateral withdrawal of the ABM treaty with Russia or the derivatives market?
[/quote]

and some states give you FREE id's. all it takes is a little time to get your free id. are we seriously trying to say that its so hard for someone one day every few ''years" to give up a little time to get a free id and get it renewed? seriously, its free. what other excuse do we have now. not to mention some states will take expired ids. so are we seriously saying that its just way to hard for a person to go 1 single time to get a free id?

[r2Dtoo]

Even if voter ID laws actually do disenfranchise Democratic voters grumping about it is dumb, considering Florida has two time zones, (eastern and central), and the media calls the state before the polls in the central time zone are even closed. The result? People in the central time zone think "Oh, the Democrat already won, so there's no reason for me to go vote now.", when in reality the polls are still open, and there's definitely enough votes there to sway the state.

I think it evens out the playing field nicely.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1346732176' post='2478162']
I have found it best to stick to what is actually said- no more, and no less.
[/quote]

I will take that and run with it.