Voter Id Laws: A Fake Solution To A Fake Problem

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346691237' post='2477889']


None of those things really require an ID. When I worked in a grocery store the policy was to card anyone who look like they were under 27 and I don't recall ever being asked to produce an ID for any job that I've ever had.


[url="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/08/voter_id_laws_why_do_minorities_lack_id_to_show_at_the_polls_.html"]http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/08/voter_id_laws_why_do_minorities_lack_id_to_show_at_the_polls_.html[/url]
[/quote]You may not recall but it's federal law to have ID ti fill out the I9 since 1986. The fake problem is people claiming its too difficult to provide ID. Even migrant workers are aided with getting IDs. They don't come to the camps but it isn't that hard to get a ride to the One of many conveniently located free aid offices. I've given rides to coworker/employees and their families. There's two within five miles of where I live in a rural area that I know of and been too. I suspect there's more. The fake problem is the idea that it's too hard to get ID if you are a US citizen. Non-citizens that need and want to work accomplish it regularly and they don't speak English.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Anomaly

[Ed Normile]

I guess this was touched on, but as I did not read the whole thread I have to add that despite Hassan's views there was incredible voter fraud during the last election, over 100,000 cases were to be prsosecuted here in Ohio, voters that were bussed in from Illinois, then there were the black panther militants dressed in army camo garb denying certain voters from access to the polls in several parts of the country including several Philly Pa. locations. There were literally hundreds of cases across the country that were to be prosecuted until Obama's attorney general Eric Holder made the statement that he would not prosecute such cases or especially cases against or involving blacks as they have been persecuted enough in this country.

The idea of illegals voting is a definite problem and one the current regime welcomes, the main reason he is offering amnesty to illegals. The liberal/socialist machine needs the illegal vote to continue their policies of death, immorality and religious persecution. The Chicago machine is famous for its dead voters, they were involved in JFK'S win too.

ed

Edited September 3, 2012 by Ed Normile

[Ed Normile]

Just a side note, do you know that it is actually a more severe criminal penalty to illegally enter Mexico ?

This is from The Washington Times a liberal rag so you know its not some right wing agenda piece.
[url="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/?page=all"]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/?page=all[/url]

Mexican President Felipe Calderon denounced as “racial discrimination” an Arizona law giving state and local police the authority to arrest suspected illegal immigrants and vowed to use all means at his disposal to defend Mexican nationals against a law he called a “violation of human rights.”
But the legislation, signed April 23 by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, is similar to Reglamento de la Ley General de Poblacion — the General Law on Population enacted in Mexico in April 2000, which mandates that federal, local and municipal police cooperate with federal immigration authorities in that country in the arrests of illegal immigrants.
Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.
The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to “economic or national interests,” violate Mexican law, are not “physically or mentally healthy” or lack the “necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents.
[color=#000000][left][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]
Read more: [url="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/?page=all#ixzz25R5nGKM7"]Mexico's illegals laws tougher than Arizona's - Washington Times[/url] [url="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/?page=all#ixzz25R5nGKM7"]http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/?page=all#ixzz25R5nGKM7[/url]
Follow us: [url="http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=ctd-fI3Dar4z1uacwqm_6r&u=washtimes"]@washtimes on Twitter[/url][/background][/left][/color]

[color=#000000][left][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]ed[/background][/left][/color]

[add]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346692185' post='2477897']
What are you talking about?
[/quote]

this: [url="http://conservativelady.hubpages.com/question/182750/is-obama-pandering-to-special-interest-groups-solely-to-increase-his-votes-come-november"]http://conservativelady.hubpages.com/question/182750/is-obama-pandering-to-special-interest-groups-solely-to-increase-his-votes-come-november[/url] < as if, you dont know

[southern california guy]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346647511' post='2477786']
please, please, please explain to me how blacks are going to not be able to get a id to vote? do black people not driver vehicles, never cash checks, don't live in apartments or houses, don't but cigarette's or alcohol or porn or have bank accounts or go to college or have paying jobs that don't pay them under the table cash? please explain to me how this is happening?
[/quote]

I'm sort of getting off topic but I'll tell you how it works here in California. A lot of the Mexican Nationals here have Mexican Identification cards. These are photo ID's and they are considered valid ID's as far as I know in California. However these obviously don't work so well as a voter identification. Especially when the person trying to vote is not an American citizen. It's not that they don't have a photo ID. It's just that they don't want people to see it.

Of course that is not really "voter fraud" because one person is only voting once. However some people use this as an argument against having to show ID when voting. And it complicates the situation of trying to combat real voter fraud -- people voting multiple times.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1346638078' post='2477733']
You know, I expected the people arguing against Hasan here to be saying "No, these ID requirements dont prevent citizens from voting" or maybe "Yes, that is a concern, but it can be mitigated in these ways, and is IMO a risk worth taking for the perceived reward."

But instead it is full of people saying "The people who will be excluded(little argument about that there) dont matter anyways, because I think they are losers and leeches. Since they are poor(and thus, obviously lazy) they dont need to have the right to vote."

Reprehensible and completely pathetic. The people who fought and died for democracy in your country would spit in your face.
[/quote]

Wow. You MUST be right about this ID thing, since you resort to name calling and 'spitting in faces' to prove your point.

It's interesting how you cite the men who died for our freedom, instead of the Founding Fathers themselves. Many of them held the idea that if you didn't pay taxes, you didn't vote.


How interesting.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346719393' post='2478079']
Wow. You MUST be right about this ID thing, since you resort to name calling and 'spitting in faces' to prove your point.

It's interesting how you cite the men who died for our freedom, instead of the Founding Fathers themselves. Many of them held the idea that if you didn't pay taxes, you didn't vote.


How interesting.
[/quote]

I did not see any name calling.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[4588686]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346719393' post='2478079']
Wow. You MUST be right about this ID thing, since you resort to name calling and 'spitting in faces' to prove your point.

It's interesting how you cite the men who died for our freedom, instead of the Founding Fathers themselves. Many of them held the idea that if you didn't pay taxes, you didn't vote.


How interesting.
[/quote]

No, they held the idea that if you didn't have landed property you shouldn't vote. Or if you were a woman.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1346716534' post='2478024']
I'm sort of getting off topic but I'll tell you how it works here in California. A lot of the Mexican Nationals here have Mexican Identification cards. These are photo ID's and they are considered valid ID's as far as I know in California. However these obviously don't work so well as a voter identification. Especially when the person trying to vote is not an American citizen. It's not that they don't have a photo ID. It's just that they don't want people to see it.

Of course that is not really "voter fraud" because one person is only voting once. However some people use this as an argument against having to show ID when voting. And it complicates the situation of trying to combat real voter fraud -- people voting multiple times.
[/quote]

You are joking right? Mexican nationals voting in America would indeed be voter fraud, one must be an American citizen to vote in America, and the same goes for Mexico.

ed

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346719393' post='2478079']
Wow. You MUST be right about this ID thing, since you resort to name calling and 'spitting in faces' to prove your point.

It's interesting how you cite the men who died for our freedom, instead of the Founding Fathers themselves. Many of them held the idea that if you didn't pay taxes, you didn't vote.


How interesting.
[/quote]

actually, I didnt call anyone names. And it is pretty clear that my post was not about any one side of the argument(you will note, at the start I outlined some defenses for the ID law), but rather about the people here arguing that "Yes, people will be excluded from voting, but i want to go a step further and say that people being excluded from voting is a good thing, because these poor leech subhumans arent worth consideration!"

If you think voter ID is necessary, and can be done with minimal collateral damage, good for you.

If you get off on the idea of taking away constitutionally protected voting rights from groups of people because you see them as worthless, well then that is a different story.

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346720073' post='2478089']
No, they held the idea that if you didn't have landed property you shouldn't vote. Or if you were a woman.
[/quote]

or if you were a slave, though they later said that those counted for 3/5ths of a person.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1346719876' post='2478085']
I did not see any name calling.
[/quote]

Me neither.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Jesus_lol

[Mercy me]

[color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346610358' post='2477624']
Why? Why would there be millions of cases of fraud? There are millions of people out there who just desperately want to pretend to be somebody else when they vote?

This makes no sense. The republicans have absolutely no evidence that there is widespread, systematic voter fraud. None. We do know that these laws will cause tens to hundreds of thousands of voters to not be able to vote in November. Which voters? Black, Students, low income voters et cetera. Which party's base would be more impacted by these laws? Which party has the most to gain from thousands of people from these groups not being able to vote in their full numbers? I guess it's the party pushing for these laws which seek to remedy a problem that has not been demonstrated to exist. But I'm sure the republicans have no ulterior motive.
[/quote]

Oh there is evidence, plenty of it. It gets stopped but I have never seen anyone charged with a crime. I was working on a campaign and we had multiple incidents. But I am just the witness. I know that it is happening because I have seen it.

I am concerned about absentee ballots. Those are ripe for fraud.

A few years ago there was a reporter out of South Florida, that did an investigative report on people registered to vote in multiple states. They get a lot of snow birds down there. It was shocking. Wish I could remember who the reporter was. The story was not picked up outside of Florida. If you are truly interested, it would be worth the search.

I have never seen anyone who does not have ID. I heard the local Democrats talking about discrimination against the poor and elderly but ID is required for everything. You can't work, drive, fly, check into a hotel, write a check, buy alcohol if you look young without ID. It is not discriminatory. It is a simple precaution.[/background][/size][/font][/color]

[4588686]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1346724663' post='2478118']


If you think voter ID is necessary, and can be done with minimal collateral damage, good for you.

If you get off on the idea of taking away constitutionally protected voting rights from groups of people because you see them as worthless, well then that is a different story.

[/quote]

Exactly. Stopping voter fraud is a good thing. And when I first heard about this I thought the democrats were making a big deal out of nothing. But looking into the issue it's pretty disgusting. The Bush administration wanted to champion this issue and tried to find evidence of voter fraud. They couldn't. We know that large numbers of people will be excluded from voting if these laws pass in an effort to circumvent an activity which has not been demonstrated to be occurring in numbers that even almost balance next to the numbers that will be excluded. It seems like a strange route to take until you read posts here and realize that some people just earnestly think that some citizens shouldn't be able to participate in a supposedly participatory government. Which is why I mentioned my friend. So, fine. People who are unwilling or unable to get to the DMV to get an ID shouldn't be allowed to vote. Why not also exclude those who dropped out of High School? Then let's go for people with minimum wage jobs. I mean, let's be honest, have you ever been inside a Wal-Mart? Do we really want those people to be active in deciding who leads our nation? Then we can go with people who are insufficiently acquainted with the text of the constitution. Then people who are insufficiently acquainted with foreign policy. I mean, if anyone here can't even name the current leaders of Russian, China, Great Britain, France, Germany, India, and Brazil, at least and without googling it, then do we really want them deciding who is going to be Commander in Chief?

I think we should have a national test. The test will be part critical thinking skills, part economic theory, part budgetary policy, part foreign affairs, and part constitutional literacy, and if anybody scores below an 80 then floopy them, who are they to decide what sort of government they live under?

[4588686]

[quote name='Mercy me' timestamp='1346727754' post='2478141']




[font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Oh there is evidence, plenty of it. It gets stopped but I have never seen anyone charged with a crime. I was working on a campaign and we had multiple incidents. But I am just the witness. I know that it is happening because I have seen it.

I am concerned about absentee ballots. Those are ripe for fraud.

A few years ago there was a reporter out of South Florida, that did an investigative report on people registered to vote in multiple states. They get a lot of snow birds down there. It was shocking. Wish I could remember who the reporter was. The story was not picked up outside of Florida. If you are truly interested, it would be worth the search.

I have never seen anyone who does not have ID. I heard the local Democrats talking about discrimination against the poor and elderly but ID is required for everything. You can't work, drive, fly, check into a hotel, write a check, buy alcohol if you look young without ID. It is not discriminatory. It is a simple precaution.[/font]
[/quote]

You had multiple incidents of people showing up, claiming to be somebody else, and trying to vote?

[Anomaly]

You're just trolling now.
There is enough anecdotal evidence that there is fraud or possibility of fraud. People were concerened when Motor Voter laws were passed. Additional concerns were raised in the 2000 elections.

The citizenry, had legitimate concerns. "Something is being done by our Government" to address concerns. The issue has been politicized by politicians, to garner votes or demonize the others.

It's a red herring that US Citizens find it extremely hard to obtain ID or the requirement is an onerous burden. Seriously, if you can't get an ID that's required to get a job, attend college, buy beer, rent a car, buy antihistamines, pawn jewelry, or sell scap metal, then there probably isn't a big loss in not getting your opinion registered.
Some ID is required to register to vote. Ther are reasons why felons and mentally incompetent can't vote. Here in Florida, they accept student cards, public assistance ID, credit cards, debit cards, as well as other I'd when you vote.

Voter ID laws serve to protect the integrity of the election system AND to protect people's confidence in the system and accept duly elected persons as legitimate, whether you liked them or not.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1346719876' post='2478085']
I did not see any name calling.
[/quote]
Re-reading the OP I quoted, there was no actual name calling. Yet reading through it again, I would have preferred name calling to what he implied that I (and others) were saying-that people who can't get an ID are leeches or losers followed by calling me (and others) reprehensible and pathetic. Granted, I said that not having an ID was an issue of laziness, but quickly got schooled on that by one of Hasan's many links. The poster I quoted is obviously seeing this thread as some sort of assertion of power, when it is a debate. I am learning things about this issue by following this thread, just as I hope other posters are as well. Rude blanket statements intended to cut down someone else for having a certain opinion are not really edifying or adding anything to this debate...at least not the kind of debate I am interested in.

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346720073' post='2478089']
No, they held the idea that if you didn't have landed property you shouldn't vote. Or if you were a woman.
[/quote]
I thought the land-owning and taxes were the same thing at that point? Regardless, your right. The actual terms used are land and property.

Edited September 4, 2012 by emmaberry