Voter Id Laws: A Fake Solution To A Fake Problem

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346639295' post='2477743']
Yeah. That seems to be the consensus of some here. A word of warning about that. One of my best friends works for a major consulting firm. I don't know the income of phatmassers, but assuming that the national averages roughly apply here (even assuming that phatmassrs tend to be somewhat financially better off than the national average) he made more on his signing bonus than most here will make in half a year. He's in his early 20's and he makes an entrance salary that's about 35% more than the average phatmasser.

He deserves what he makes. He works really hard, is extremely intelligent, and dedicated himself to being one of the most competitive applicants in one of the best business schools in the country. But I wonder how the phatmassers who are so quick to count these poor and disenfranchised as lazy and unworthy of being politically represented would feel when individuals in my friend's class decide that they the middle class citizen is too lazy and stupid to merit political representation. I mean, mean, most phatmassers aren't as intelligent and hard-working as he is (I count myself amongst their number), right ? So why should the mediocre get to vote next to someone like him who is exceptional?
[/quote]

everyone should and has the right to vote. as long as you are a us citizen. the problem is when your required to have an id to live in america today and need it for everything but not to vote. why should you be required to have an id for anything then if one of the most important things you will do as a citizen is vote and an id is not required. why shouldn't we get rid of having id's for alcohol sales, cigarette sales, pornography sales, cashing checks(if you say its your check why should we question that it might not be yours), heck why have driver's liscense.

i could go on an on. an id is needed for so many things but something SO important as electing our leaders should have no requirments at all?

[4588686]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346642811' post='2477751']
so your calling that poster a liar? i believe the poster, don't you?
[/quote]

No, I am certainly not calling him a liar. I'm saying that it is extremely weak evidence. He says that his friend found out that his grandfather voted in 2008. There are a very few cases of actual in-person voting fraud. Is it possible that one of those very few cases involved somebody posing as his friend's grandfather? Sure. All the sources I've linked have said as much. I simply asked, out of curiosity, how he knew this and the evidence he presented was pretty weak. Does that mean he's a liar? Obviously not. Maybe his friend is mistaken. Maybe somebody with his grandfather's name lives in the area. I don't know where his friend got the information from and neither does he. That doesn't mean that either is lying. I don't know what happened since all he knows is that a friend of his thinks that his grandfather may have been counted as a voter years ago.

[4588686]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346643131' post='2477754']
everyone should and has the right to vote. as long as you are a us citizen. the problem is when your required to have an id to live in america today and need it for everything but not to vote. why should you be required to have an id for anything then if one of the most important things you will do as a citizen is vote and an id is not required. why shouldn't we get rid of having id's for alcohol sales, cigarette sales, pornography sales, cashing checks(if you say its your check why should we question that it might not be yours), heck why have driver's liscense.

i could go on an on. an id is needed for so many things but something SO important as electing our leaders should have no requirments at all?
[/quote]

None of those are constitutionally guaranteed rights.

The reason that people like me are so wary about adding requirements on the ability of a citizen's right to vote is because of the extensive history of disenfranchising blacks and other minority groups here in the south from adding on requirements to the right to vote. Since this is an unnecessary protection and since there is such a strong racial element to who will be the most impacted, it is disturbing. We don't want to start politicizing who gets to vote or not.

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346641061' post='2477747']
Le double post. But you could still kiss my ass again, Hasan.
I'd add everyone else that is fake offended for the"poor and black". There's poor, black, and foreign, and then there's just no account. We're only talking about ID. I've seen too many people do something with nothing to believe its a horror or affront to require ID to vote. Voting isn't just buying beer or cashing a check. Voting is a responsibility and requires effort that isn't always easy or convenient.
[/quote]

Voting is actually a constitutionally guaranteed right. I guess somewhere along the way people got the idea that individuals have a right to some political self-determination.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346643024' post='2477753']Didn't say I did. The only comments I've made about you have been directed to things that you have actually said.

That makes two of us.

Of the two of us, I'm not the one who has deemed other people beneath me or unworthy of political representation.

None of this has anything to do with anything I said. You're just kicking up dust. Also, I never called you a heartless bastard.
[/quote]Its not your wealth, job, who your relatives are, or lack of all of it. It's what you co with it. If you aren't born with everything, you gotta work for it. It's harder for some, impossible for few. Getting an ID is not insurmountable though can require more effort by some. Let's keep it in perspective.
I know exactly what you meant likening me to Rand. I'm a little less coy. In fact, I'm just blunt.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Anomaly

[southern california guy]

Do any of you people realize how hard it is for dead people to vote? This sort of thing is only going to make it harder!!

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346644100' post='2477761']


Voting is actually a constitutionally guaranteed right. I guess somewhere along the way people got the idea that individuals have a right to some political self-determination.
[/quote]And Constitutionally thers been requirements and limitations.
We are talking about getting proper ID, not proving land ownership or two generations of heritage.

And I'll add another thing that rips me up. People who are always being told they can't, believe it. People who are told constantly they are hated, believe it. It doesn't matter if it's true. Lies still cripple what people believe they can do. Not everyone can overcome a lifetime of being told they're hated and screwed by the system. The solution isn't to enable their belief in lies but to tell them the truth, life is tough for most people and you have to do the work yourself.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Anomaly

[add]

[b] Source of "Vote Early and Often"[/b]

The cynical phrases "Vote early -- and often" and "Vote early -- and vote often" are variously attributed to three different Chicagoans: Al Capone, the famous gangster; [url="http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/mayors/daley1.html"]Richard J. Daley[/url], mayor from 1955 to 1976; and [url="http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/mayors/thompson.html"]William Hale Thompson[/url], mayor from 1915-1923 and 1931-1935. All three were notorious for their corruption and their manipulation of the democratic process. It is most likely that Thompson invented the phrase, and Capone and Daley later repeated it.

[BG45]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1346638078' post='2477733']
You know, I expected the people arguing against Hasan here to be saying "No, these ID requirements dont prevent citizens from voting" or maybe "Yes, that is a concern, but it can be mitigated in these ways, and is IMO a risk worth taking for the perceived reward."

But instead it is full of people saying "The people who will be excluded(little argument about that there) dont matter anyways, because I think they are losers and leeches. Since they are poor(and thus, obviously lazy) they dont need to have the right to vote."

Reprehensible and completely pathetic. The people who fought and died for democracy in your country would spit in your face.
[/quote]

Actually as I mentioned earlier, while playing Devil's Advocate, I'm not sure how much I agree with you on that; the spitting in the face thing. We tend to deify those who came before, mostly with the Founding Fathers, but others as well. A number of the men who died prior to the last 100 or so years weren't able to exercise the freedoms we now have to vote either in the US. The past century to century and a half has seen a radical shift in who can vote in the United States: non-land owners, non-Caucasians, women, etc. Even as late as the 1960s, some African Americans weren't allowed to vote due to discriminatory laws; for that matter, some African Americans were still enslaved thanks to the Peonage system in the South which was slavery in all but name.

Do I believe firmly that we all have a right to vote? Yes. Am I grateful to live in a place where that right is guaranteed to myself and my fellow countrymen? Definitely. Did the Founding Fathers intend for all of us to have that right? No, but thankfully the Constitution is an evolving document, or I'd sure not be able to vote and neither would almost every US citizen in this thread; including those who are making the "leach" type comments.

Personally, my home state doesn't have voter ID laws, and sometimes I still get asked for some sort of identification. Not necessarily photo, like these laws suggest, but maybe "Do you have your voter registration card?" or "What would your address be?". The state I'm in now, provides free ID for voting purposes for those who don't have the paperwork to get a standard ID of some sort.

I am with you in that I'm disappointed in general in this thread by the attitudes that some people don't deserve the right to vote. A right that, as you say, has been fought for and paid in blood. However, not only was it paid for in the blood of military men and women, but by all those who advocated suffrage who were the victims of what we'd now call domestic terrorism as well.

To not play Devil's Advocate for the first time in the thread: Personally, while I'd not be 100% opposed to voter ID, it would have to be freely provided from a centralized location; but I don't think we need it necessarily. The entire issue is political at heart; even if one is espousing the talking points from Fox News about dead people, illegal immigrants, etc. or the talking points from MSNBC such as "Republicans want to destroy the poor".

Okay, going to step off my agreeing with you soapbox and just let the [url="http://www.hackingdemocracy.com/"]voting machines get screwed [/url]with, [url="http://www.salon.com/2011/09/27/votinghack/"]because[/url] we all know it's [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hCyVsUir8k"]child's play[/url] to [url="http://www.infosecisland.com/blogview/16960-Researchers-Demonstrate-Diebold-Voting-Machine-Hack.html"]do so.[/url]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1346637986' post='2477732']
How are you going to organize people in order to affect large elections through individual voter fraud?
[/quote]Less than a thousand votes in Palm Beach County, Florida made the difference in the 2000 presidential election.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346643998' post='2477760']
None of those are constitutionally guaranteed rights.

The reason that people like me are so wary about adding requirements on the ability of a citizen's right to vote is because of the extensive history of disenfranchising blacks and other minority groups here in the south from adding on requirements to the right to vote. Since this is an unnecessary protection and since there is such a strong racial element to who will be the most impacted, it is disturbing. We don't want to start politicizing who gets to vote or not.
[/quote]

please, please, please explain to me how blacks are going to not be able to get a id to vote? do black people not driver vehicles, never cash checks, don't live in apartments or houses, don't but cigarette's or alcohol or porn or have bank accounts or go to college or have paying jobs that don't pay them under the table cash? please explain to me how this is happening?

[4588686]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346647511' post='2477786']
please, please, please explain to me how blacks are going to not be able to get a id to vote? do black people not driver vehicles, never cash checks, don't live in apartments or houses, don't but cigarette's or alcohol or porn or have bank accounts or go to college or have paying jobs that don't pay them under the table cash? please explain to me how this is happening?
[/quote]


[url="http://www.pjstar.com/opinion/columns/x326766208/On-the-Issues-Voter-ID-laws-reduce-election-turnout"]http://www.pjstar.com/opinion/columns/x326766208/On-the-Issues-Voter-ID-laws-reduce-election-turnout[/url]
[i][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=3] [b]For example, among African Americans, 25 percent of voting-age citizens lack government-issued documents.[/b] This compares with 8 percent of voting-age whites. More generally, such Voter ID laws disproportionately screen out voters who are low-income and minority and who are less likely to have the necessary identification documents. So it is not surprising that Voter ID laws are associated with lower voter turnout in those states that have recently enacted them. It is estimated that they reduce overall voter turnout by more than 2 percent in those states.[/size][/font][/color][/i]

[4588686]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346647511' post='2477786']
please, please, please explain to me how blacks are going to not be able to get a id to vote? do black people not driver vehicles, never cash checks, don't live in apartments or houses, don't but cigarette's or alcohol or porn or have bank accounts or go to college or have paying jobs that don't pay them under the table cash? please explain to me how this is happening?
[/quote]


[url="http://www.pjstar.com/opinion/columns/x326766208/On-the-Issues-Voter-ID-laws-reduce-election-turnout"]http://www.pjstar.com/opinion/columns/x326766208/On-the-Issues-Voter-ID-laws-reduce-election-turnout[/url]
[i][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=3] [b]For example, among African Americans, 25 percent of voting-age citizens lack government-issued documents.[/b] This compares with 8 percent of voting-age whites. More generally, such Voter ID laws disproportionately screen out voters who are low-income and minority and who are less likely to have the necessary identification documents. So it is not surprising that Voter ID laws are associated with lower voter turnout in those states that have recently enacted them. It is estimated that they reduce overall voter turnout by more than 2 percent in those states.[/size][/font][/color][/i]

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346648141' post='2477791']
[url="http://www.pjstar.com/opinion/columns/x326766208/On-the-Issues-Voter-ID-laws-reduce-election-turnout"]http://www.pjstar.co...lection-turnout[/url]
[i][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=3][b]For example, among African Americans, 25 percent of voting-age citizens lack government-issued documents.[/b] This compares with 8 percent of voting-age whites. More generally, such Voter ID laws disproportionately screen out voters who are low-income and minority and who are less likely to have the necessary identification documents. So it is not surprising that Voter ID laws are associated with lower voter turnout in those states that have recently enacted them. It is estimated that they reduce overall voter turnout by more than 2 percent in those states.[/size][/font][/color][/i]
[/quote]

I have one question: how do these people buy beer, cigarettes, tobacco, or R-rated movies? You might say they don't.

Okay, then. How do these people get jobs without an ID? What's that? They don't have jobs? Oh, right. So how do these 25% of African-Americans receive welfare or unemployment benefits without an ID?

This is madness.

[Innocent]

Hasan, are you protesting the concept of a voter ID in itself, or are you saying that this has been introduced too close to the next election that several people won't be able to get to vote on account of it?

Would you be against a Voter ID system if it was implemented by the Govt. sending officials from door to door to ensure that everyone gets a Voter ID card, and providing this card free of cost to every citizen who is of age to exercise franchise? eg. [url="http://www.deccanherald.com/content/73080/content/219141/secret-my-longevity.html"]1[/url], [url="http://post.jagran.com/UP-to-provide-door-to-door-service-for-Voter-ID-cards-1315044802"]2[/url], [url="http://sarjapur-road.com/tag/voter-id"]3[/url], [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5QBERU7wNE"]4[/url]

Edited September 3, 2012 by Innocent