jazzytakara Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1346290300' post='2476100'] The bottom line is the notion that there are too many people in this world and the population growth and eventually the total number of humans needs to be reduced.This underlies and explains all the behavior of the US government all over the world. [/quote] Although over population is a risk, I think the world needs to realize that ending innocent lives is not the solution. There are a variety of other methods that can be exercised to curb the risk of over population, like abstinance, NFP, etc. I guess maybe its more of a problem of society wanting all of the pleasure and instant gratification, but not wanting the results of such actions. Its just sad that babies are being punished for society's irresponsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConfusedCatholicGuy Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 [quote name='phatcatholic' timestamp='1346272759' post='2475992'] Abortion isn't about a woman being able to make a choice about her body. She made that choice when she had sex. Abortion is about making a choice about [i][b]another person's body,[/b][/i] the one in the womb. The problem is, no one wants to ever live with the consequences of their actions. They want the sexual gratification without the responsibility. They want to have their cake and eat it too. The whole "my body, my choice" line is just a red herring. [/quote] I think that this is the heart of the issue. People want to get the pleasure of having sex without the imminent outcome that the pleasure they felt means. They want pleasure but don't want responsibility for what that pleasure entails. Forget the life that they just created, it will adversely affect MY life. Oh no, I didn't think of the consequences when I had the sex. Now I have the choice of either killing the life inside of me or changing my life to accommodate the life that I created. You did the act now take responsibility for what you created! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 pray. People have truly lost there way with all this moral relevance carp. It's such an inconsistent belief system but people can't think past the immediate, and I mean very immediate, surface of that idea and it has tainted many sectors of public and private morality. If everyone is his own moral arbiter, it comes down to a mere battle of wills with the strongest (as opposed to the kindest, the wisest etc) win out by brute force. And the weakest suffer. In some cultures it's been the physically disabled, the mentally ill, infants, the poor, the ill, the old. For ours it's the unborn. It's sad. On a side note, every time I see that "It's a scary time to be a woman" propaganda where they brand Romney as a radical (Oh SRSLY? people need to learn that radical doesn't mean "someone who disagrees with me") I want to vomit my entire digestive system out of my mouth. Ladies, if you are afraid of Romney, please grow a pair of ovaries. Please. You're making the rest of us look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzytakara Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 I saw a sign that read "Keep your rosaries away from my ovaries", people seem to want all the freedom and rights to harmful things, but in the process of claiming said rights they wish to eradicate the rights of others who disagree with them. Our culture is going down the drain and I fear we are only at the beginning of this downward spiral. The murder of innocent children and the hatred towards Christianity is only the beginning. Lord help us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 [quote name='jazzytakara' timestamp='1346344231' post='2476322'] Lord help us all. [/quote] He will. The culture might need to implode first before it gets better, but I have already been witness to the ongoing purification and strengthening of Catholic marriages that is happening as a direct result of this persecution.The stars shine brightest when the sky is completely dark, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Feminists For Life has a lot of good resources that show how being pro-life is being pro-woman. [url="http://www.feministsforlife.org/"]http://www.feministsforlife.org/[/url] The organization is non-religious and non-political. Check out the recommended reading here: "[url="http://www.feministsforlife.org/FFL_topics/index.htm"]http://www.feministsforlife.org/FFL_topics/index.htm[/url]" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God the Father Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 The world is not overpopulated, and it's not even close. Overcrowding and overconsumption are economic realities that become inconvenient and could stand some innovation, but when it comes to population, most nations are experiencing the opposite problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzytakara Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 [quote name='God the Father' timestamp='1346360301' post='2476393'] The world is not overpopulated, and it's not even close. Overcrowding and overconsumption are economic realities that become inconvenient and could stand some innovation, but when it comes to population, most nations are experiencing the opposite problem. [/quote] I remember speaking to an exchange student once from China, he said that he had never seen so much open spaces before. Some places do suffer from over crowding, but in North America in particular the open spaces are mainly a result of the economy, so many people own land and multiple houses, yet complain that there isn't enough space for the homeless. No,there is enough space, we are not over populated, consumption drives greed and people want to own more and more, yet are unwilling to help out those who are unable to afford even the necesseties to life. Overcrowding is an excuse for a society of excess, people want more and more, they don't want to share, they don't want consequences. Excuses such as "A baby would be an inconvenience, less time and money for myself" or "why should I abstain when I can just get rid of the negatives, I shouldn't have to stop what feels good", etc. we live in a selfish culture that rather than taking responsibilty, places blame on those who cannot defend themselves, those who have done nothing wrong. You are most definently right, we are no where close to being overpopulated and we have plenty of resources we just need to start distributing rather than hoarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='jazzytakara' timestamp='1346268929' post='2475939'] I really have trouble understanding where these people are coming from. To me restricting abortion isn't destroying women's rights, its preventing murder. I have heard some say that it ensures 'life, liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness' but how can something that destroys the life of an unborn child be for life. Also I have noticed a double standard in this debate too, why does only the women get to make the decision that effects three people (the father and the child). There are many cases where the father of the baby wants to keep the child, but the mother always wins the battle as its 'her' body. Yes it is, but it is 'his' child too. I just don't think it is fair that only one person gets a choice in the matter, she chooses for her unborn child who can't voice his.her opinion, and she gets to choose over the father because its her body. If you didn't want to have a child, than practice safe sex at the very least if you can't abstain. I understand rape is a different situation, but just because a child was born out of hate, doesn't mean it should die, adoption is a viable reason. And its sad that so many children are being aborted, yet many couples struggle desperately to conceive. Abortion is simply a product of a sexually liberalized culture, many seem to be wanting all of the pleasure but none of the 'consquences' or results of this behaviour. No one should have to die because of someone elses irresponsibility. It isn't right.. Can anyone help me understand this and advise me on what to do when people attack me for being pro-life? What should a catholic-christian do in today's society when our beliefs are being attacked? [/quote] You have the religious right fighting for abstinence only education, against abortion, and against contraceptives. That's not good for women. I'm not saying that you won't find women who are fine with the policies. I'm saying that on a macro level women having less reproductive freedom (from not being properly educated about contraceptives, to not having access to contraceptives, to not having access to abortion) is immensely detrimental to women's political and economic status. Can you find women who have raised 5 kids and are still superstars in their field? Yes. Again, I'm talking about macro trends. And on a macro level the link between reproductive freedom and socio-economic status is undeniable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='phatcatholic' timestamp='1346272759' post='2475992'] Abortion isn't about a woman being able to make a choice about her body. She made that choice when she had sex. Abortion is about making a choice about [i][b]another person's body,[/b][/i] the one in the womb. The problem is, no one wants to ever live with the consequences of their actions. They want the sexual gratification without the responsibility. They want to have their cake and eat it too. The whole "my body, my choice" line is just a red herring. [/quote] In who owns the womb? Abortion is a tricky ethical question. That's why the solution has been to side with given women the power over their own bodies. The fetus is not yet a citizen, or even a person at the early stages, and therefore the preponderance of legal protections goes to the women. That's a pretty good compromise for a very tricky situation. And it's not a red herring. It is a woman's body. The women is being forced to carry a fetus in her body against her will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346590838' post='2477568'] In who owns the womb? Abortion is a tricky ethical question. That's why the solution has been to side with given women the power over their own bodies. The fetus is not yet a citizen, or even a person at the early stages, and therefore the preponderance of legal protections goes to the women. That's a pretty good compromise for a very tricky situation. And it's not a red herring. It is a woman's body. The women is being forced to carry a fetus in her body against her will. [/quote]Citzenship is not a factor as you well know. The problem is how you define personage in clear not circumstantial terms. Is it a matter of cognitive or physical ability? Level of dependence on others? Overall contribution to society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346592326' post='2477573'] Citzenship is not a factor as you well know. The problem is how you define personage in clear not circumstantial terms. Is it a matter of cognitive or physical ability? Level of dependence on others? Overall contribution to society? [/quote] Yes it is. If the fetus were a citizen then abortion would not be legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346597037' post='2477580'] Yes it is. If the fetus were a citizen then abortion would not be legal. [/quote]We can't arbitrarily kill mon-citizens here. Even if they're gram a country we couldn't give a croutons about. Even so, you need to be recognized as a person first to be a citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God the Father Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1346590838' post='2477568'] In who owns the womb? Abortion is a tricky ethical question. That's why the solution has been to side with given women the power over their own bodies. The fetus is not yet a citizen, or even a person at the early stages, and therefore the preponderance of legal protections goes to the women. That's a pretty good compromise for a very tricky situation. And it's not a red herring. It is a woman's body. The women is being forced to carry a fetus in her body against her will. [/quote] It's a tricky ethical question where the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother. It's a tricky ethical question in cases of rape. It's actually an easy ethical question in most cases, when you balance nine months of inconvenience for one party, who consented to the precipitating behavior, against the lifetime of the other. How anyone can perceive the justice of abortion in these cases is far, far beyond my understanding. I agree with your other argument. The fetus is not a citizen, and therefore cannot vote, which is why politicians in a deomcracy will never, [i]ever[/i] side with him/her at the risk of alienating a portion of their constituency. It's just the way it is for the "little guy" in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 This is the great evil of our time, having taken the power for ourselves to deem a class of biological human being "non-people." In doing so we have chosen to follow the fascists and the socialists whom once we saw walk the way to perdition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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