Trusting In Mercy Vs Presumming On Mercy

[sixpence]

So I can't seem to wrap my tiny brain around the idea that we are to always "trust in God's Mercy" (aka do not despair), but somehow not ever "presume on God's Mercy". Is it ever possible for someone who trusts in God's mercy to commit a mortal sin without AUTOMATICALLY ALSO presuming?
I understand that the idea is to not go around sinning with the idea that you will just fix it up all later in confession, my question is, is that possible?? Does anyone ever knowingly commit a mortal sin without the idea that they can fix it later?? I can't see how someone could knowingly risk salvation that way.

Thoughts???

[Papist]

I have only heard Protestants say Catholics go out and sin b/c they can just go to confession the next day. Maybe ill catechized people think this is ok.

For me, it is like you know your parents will forgive you, but you are still anxious about. Probably an effect of guilt.

[Theresita Nerita]

This is one of the reasons I've come to think that "mortal sin" is way less common than you'd think.

In the past, I've definitely committed mortal sins while also thinking "I'll fix this up later in confession" (which is why i stink.) And yes, from what i understand, that would be just adding the presumption sin onto the other sin.

I can also picture someone who consciously rebels against what he believes are the teachings of God and the church (a Satanist or someone angry at God) possibly getting into mortal sin and saying "Take that, God." With no intention of being forgiven. I can see that this may be a mortal sin (though only God knows the person's heart.)

But I think that what more often happens is people commit sins of grave matter without really reflecting on it. Example: Out on your birthday, your friends keep buying you shots, one thing leads to another, and [i]without ever consciously thinking "this is a sin"[/i] you've gone ahead and gone too far with someone you don't even know. You only think "that was a sin!" afterward. I think this is an example of something that people mistakenly refer to as "mortal sin" when in fact it's just grave matter with not enough reflection. Matter for confession, yes. But a strict mortal sin, probably not.

Grain of salt, though: I'm no church scholar!

[sixpence]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1346252068' post='2475789']
I have only heard Protestants say Catholics go out and sin b/c they can just go to confession the next day. Maybe ill catechized people think this is ok.

For me, it is like you know your parents will forgive you, but you are still anxious about. Probably an effect of guilt.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone thinks it is "ok" to go out and sin because you can go to confession. My point is::
1) According to my understanding, a mortal sin requires the individual to commit the act with full knowledge that it is sinful; therefore, the individual is acknowledges that the act could result in hell.
2) Assuming these requirements are met (the individual is acknowledging the seriousness and severity of his/her actions), how likely is it that the person will continue the act without, at least subconsciously, assuming they can somehow get away with said act and still retain the potential of salvation?
3) It seems to me that a person, willfully committing a grave sin, in full knowledge (1) does not actually believe said sin will lead to hell (is it still a mortal sin if they don't understand the severity of their actions?) OR (2) is presuming on God's mercy.

Iono if that made any sense...

[Papist]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1346261478' post='2475883']
I don't think anyone thinks it is "ok" to go out and sin because you can go to confession. My point is::
1) According to my understanding, a mortal sin requires the individual to commit the act with full knowledge that it is sinful; therefore, the individual is acknowledges that the act could result in hell.
2) Assuming these requirements are met (the individual is acknowledging the seriousness and severity of his/her actions), how likely is it that the person will continue the act without, at least subconsciously, assuming they can somehow get away with said act and still retain the potential of salvation?
3) It seems to me that a person, willfully committing a grave sin, in full knowledge (1) does not actually believe said sin will lead to hell (is it still a mortal sin if they don't understand the severity of their actions?) OR (2) is presuming on God's mercy.

Iono if that made any sense...
[/quote]
I understand. I don't have a fulfilling answer. God's mercy is infinite and our minds are very limited. If it was not for our sinful nature, we would not have God's mercy. I can't imagine God without experiencing His Divine Mercy.

[MissyP89]

I'm not going to lie, early on in my conversion I did lots of sinning under the grounds that I would confess it later. Also, once you ARE in mortal sin, a common attitude is "Well I'm technically going to hell anyway, so sinning more won't change that." That allows opportunity for continued sin until Saturday (or confession time) arrives.

So yes, it's definitely possible to bank on God's mercy. It's destructive and terribly unhealthy, but it's legit.

Edited August 29, 2012 by MissyP89

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1346261478' post='2475883']
I don't think anyone thinks it is "ok" to go out and sin because you can go to confession. My point is::
1) According to my understanding, a mortal sin requires the individual to commit the act with full knowledge that it is sinful; therefore, the individual is acknowledges that the act could result in hell.
2) Assuming these requirements are met (the individual is acknowledging the seriousness and severity of his/her actions), how likely is it that the person will continue the act without, at least subconsciously, assuming they can somehow get away with said act and still retain the potential of salvation?
3) It seems to me that a person, willfully committing a grave sin, in full knowledge (1) does not actually believe said sin will lead to hell (is it still a mortal sin if they don't understand the severity of their actions?) OR (2) is presuming on God's mercy.

Iono if that made any sense...
[/quote]
To respond to #2 (and indirectly to your other points) I think it is quite likely. I can speak from my own experience on this. When I was in college (isn't that always how it starts?), I committed serious sins that I knew were serious sins, but I did them anyway b/c, well, I liked them and I wasn't ready to give them up. I had no thought in my head of, "God will have mercy on me" or "I can just go to Confession later." I [i][b]didn't[/b][/i] go to confession later. I wasn't even thinking about God or my soul. I knew the acts were gravely sinful and I didn't care. Or, I should say, I cared more about my gratification than I did about my soul. I didn't really give my soul much thought at all.

I think a lot of lukewarm Catholics fall into this boat. Yea, they went to Catholic school and they've heard enough homilies to know what's a serious sin and what isn't, but they don't care enough about their soul or their relationship with Christ to do anything about it. They don't presume on God's mercy, they don't trust in God's mercy, they don't despair of God's mercy. They are apathetic on the matter.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Do we love GOD's justice as much as we love his mercy ? Unfortunately sometimes i willingly commit a sin and after the sin i realise i have endangered my eternal salvation and cry out for mercy, but also am open to any justice or wrath or judgement GOD wills upon me for the good of my soul and eternal salvation. It's a funny thing that you said sixpence about seeing both sides. I don't think you are being in two minds just analysing all possibilities you can fathom, and your brains bigger than you think desiring to talk the conclusions or lack of definate conclusions out. But on that note now when i goto confession most of the time i have two feelings and thoughts, i have sorrow for my sins but also joy in the hope of being forgiven, without assuming GOD's mercy. Which is taking time to get used to coz it's kind of confusing for me to have a momment of hope with arye smile at confession, but that rye smile is only love for the LORD and the holy priesthood, in the hope of forgiveness and heaven. But i didn't always have that contrite mix, it has only been the last 3 or so years and i had 4-5 years before that where i just did it as a duty and not nescisarily holy desire or the thought of mercy and heaven or judgement, though still today i don't always have that heart, sometimes i just wan't to get in there bang out the confession and walk away assuming i have fullfilled my obligation, GOD understands this though, but for me believing GOD understands also to me doesn't mean i am assuming his mercy. <edit> This is just my opinion and am just being honest which doesn't mean i'm right though.


Onward christian souls.
JESUS iz LORD.
GOD is GOOD , GOD is LOVE, GOD SAVES.

O Mary conceived without sin, please pray for us whom have recourse to thee.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Egidio]

[quote name='Theresita Nerita' timestamp='1346260607' post='2475871']
This is one of the reasons I've come to think that "mortal sin" is way less common than you'd think.
[/quote]

Oh, how i wish this were true, but i am inclined to think the exact opposite!!

[quote name='Theresita Nerita' timestamp='1346260607' post='2475871']

Example: Out on your birthday, your friends keep buying you shots, one thing leads to another, and [i]without ever consciously thinking "this is a sin"[/i] you've gone ahead and gone too far with someone you don't even know. You only think "that was a sin!" afterward. I think this is an example of something that people mistakenly refer to as "mortal sin" when in fact it's just grave matter with not enough reflection. Matter for confession, yes. But a strict mortal sin, probably not.

[/quote]

If a person knows that if they drink they will probably sin, then by their drinking they consent (even if it be indirectly) to the consequences. Of course if someone has their drink spiked, this takes away some of their culpability, but if they placed themselves in a position where this was likely to happen, then they, once more must brunt some of the blame.

The essential part of sin is the consent. The degree of the consent is also the degree of culpability for the sin (keeping in mind that the person must realise what they are doing is infact sinful. However with those BIG sins, unless we have completely hardened our hearts, we know when we commit them ). The gravity of the sin is another matter, however what might normally be considered a venial sin, could become grave if the motive for the consent is to despise God. It can be quite complex, hence priests must study many years before they can enter the confessional, and must continue to study so that they don't go rusty!

Unfortunatly many live in habitual grave sin (co-habitaion, contraception etc), and as a consequence are spiritually blinded as to the real state of affairs. However, as Sacred Scripture tells us, "Where sin abounds. grace abounds all the more", and so there is never really an valid excuse for someone not parting from a sinful life.

The Mercy of God, I think, is manifested mostly in His great patience with us poor sinners! (but not limited to only this).He waits and waits, sends abundant and sufficient grace for our conversion, and NEVER stops loving us... in the 'hope' (not used in its normal sense), that we might turn toward Him.

St Maximilian said that God, while Merciful, must also be Just; while our Blessed Mother has no need to be a judge, and therefore is pure Mercy. Let us then turn to Her, so that we might truly experience God's Mercy.

Once again, this is only an abbreviated response, for more info, go to seminary .

AVE MARIA!

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Unfortunatly many live in habitual grave sin (co-habitaion). Edgido how is co habitation a grave mortal sin when i know of a saint whom was married and her and her husband took a vowe of chastity and never broke it, am sorry i can't remember the name of the saint i heard it on ewtn. And what if the girlfriend and boyfriend are in seperate rooms. I even rekon some can share the same bed without ever having sex. Not everyone is a horny little devil so to speak. Co habitation isn't against a matter of faith and morals in any sacred tradition i know of nore is it a biblical no no as far as i can remember. A liberal can restrain themselves a conservative can't. Both are in accordance with the will of GOD for there lives at that paticular point in time and both are living in grace and self knowledge. This example is not to do with pre marital sex, but a liberal christian can walk into a bar every weekend and have lets say 1-6 beers and catch a taxi home no problemo, but a conservative can't because the conservative knows he or she has an issue with alcohol and quiet likely will have more beer than his fair share therefore doesn't even enter. I think we would all be quiet suprised on the liberal conservative debate that in some areas we are liberal and other conservative in accordance to the will of GOD and grace in self knowledge. Which of course all is a learning thing. If in seriouse doubt don't even attempt it i guess and that would be a complete conservative which isn't wrong either nescisarily, unless becoming trapped in over scrupulosity and not being able to function at all.

P.S. a priest i know of told a convert on the matter of a still existing girlfriend after the re conversion of this man that they should sleep in seperate rooms, but didn't say she had to vamoose. Maybe he was wrong, i don't know, this is all just opinion based on some chrisitan stuff too.

P.s.s i liked everything else you said though.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Egidio]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1346329443' post='2476243']
Unfortunatly many live in habitual grave sin (co-habitaion). Edgido how is co habitation a grave mortal sin when i know of a saint whom was married and her and her husband took a vowe of chastity and never broke it, am sorry i can't remember the name of the saint i heard it on ewtn. And what if the girlfriend and boyfriend are in seperate rooms. I even rekon some can share the same bed without ever having sex. Not everyone is a horny little devil so to speak. Co habitation isn't against a matter of faith and morals in any sacred tradition i know of nore is it a biblical no no as far as i can remember. A liberal can restrain themselves a conservative can't. Both are in accordance with the will of GOD for there lives at that paticular point in time and both are living in grace and self knowledge. This example is not to do with pre marital sex, but a liberal christian can walk into a bar every weekend and have lets say 1-6 beers and catch a taxi home no problemo, but a conservative can't because the conservative knows he or she has an issue with alcohol and quiet likely will have more beer than his fair share therefore doesn't even enter. I think we would all be quiet suprised on the liberal conservative debate that in some areas we are liberal and other conservative in accordance to the will of GOD and grace in self knowledge. Which of course all is a learning thing. If in seriouse doubt don't even attempt it i guess and that would be a complete conservative which isn't wrong either nescisarily, unless becoming trapped in over scrupulosity and not being able to function at all.

P.S. a priest i know of told a convert on the matter of a still existing girlfriend after the re conversion of this man that they should sleep in seperate rooms, but didn't say she had to vamoose. Maybe he was wrong, i don't know, this is all just opinion based on some chrisitan stuff too.

P.s.s i liked everything else you said though.
[/quote]

Tab, as I mentioned, it can be quite complex, and I don't know if this is the right place to give an extensive lesson on moral theology, due to the risk of being misunderstood. But I will try to clarify a few points.

Co-habitation means for a couple to be living as man and wife, without being man and wife. It doesn't simply mean living in the same house. An unmarried man and woman [i]can[/i] live in the same house, as long as they are living chastely...HOWEVER...if they have been taking advantage of 'benefits' that are reserved for those who are married, and then have a conversion of heart, then for the sake of the weakness of man's flesh, AND to avoid scandal, one of them should move out until their relationship is made [i]'regular'. [/i]

There are exceptions to the "better to move out' advise, for example, when there are children involved, but even in this case, the couple should have separate beds and must live chastely until the union can be blessed by the Church.

Please keep in mind though, that these situations must be taken case by case. The above are simply principles to help judge the different cases.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are trying to say about conservatives and liberals. I am simply talking about what the Catholic Church and Her saints teach.


I hope this clears things up a bit.

AVE MARIA!

[Theresita Nerita]

[quote name='Egidio' timestamp='1346298465' post='2476162']
If a person knows that if they drink they will probably sin, then by their drinking they consent (even if it be indirectly) to the consequences.
[/quote]

True, true - I wasn't saying drinking excuses things. (The person in my little mental scenario was a kid on their 21st birthday or someone otherwise inexperienced enough not to be able to predict the effects of drinking a particular amount, not a seasoned boozehound who knows beforehand what he's apt to do under alcohol's effects.)

My understanding is that you must indeed [i]have[/i] that thought at some point beforehand, "If I do this, I will probably sin." Without that thought or one like it, acknowledging that the action is sinful [i]before[/i] you commit it, you can sin venially but not mortally. Is that correct?

That's why I say mortal sins are less common that we think. Maybe in the confessional you learn otherwise, but when I look around I see people who either 1) are really trying to love and serve God but fail in big or small things, due to weakness, eccentricity, or just the process of growing in faith, or 2) have never been catechized at all and honestly don't believe the things they are doing (co-habiting etc.) are sins. Because we no longer live in a world where moral values are universally accepted - there are many, many people who grow up in an environment where the natural law written on their hearts is scribbled over by conflicting messages until they honestly can't read it anymore. Are they still held accountable for it? Only God knows whether it's still legible or not.

Even apart from societal factors, isn't our entire faith life a process? We learn new things every day, and the standards rise as we slowly learn what it is God wants of us. For example, the day before Jesus told the apostles "not to take a second tunic," owning 2 or 20 tunics would not have been a mortal sin. The day after he said it, owning 2 tunics would have been a grave sin, because they would have known exactly what was expected of them and disobeyed on purpose. Similarly, what I routinely confess as a sin now (uncharitable comments behind peoples' backs) I never confessed five years ago, because I simply hadn't realized it was a sin. So were all my communions back then bad communions? I don't think so - I think my uncharitable comments were venial sins then, becuase of my ignorance, and are grave sins now. And I'm sure in 10 years I'll be confessing something else that I regularly do today, in ignorance of its gravity.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1346251069' post='2475777']
So I can't seem to wrap my tiny brain around the idea that we are to always "trust in God's Mercy" (aka do not despair), but somehow not ever "presume on God's Mercy". Is it ever possible for someone who trusts in God's mercy to commit a mortal sin without AUTOMATICALLY ALSO presuming?
I understand that the idea is to not go around sinning with the idea that you will just fix it up all later in confession, my question is, is that possible?? Does anyone ever knowingly commit a mortal sin without the idea that they can fix it later?? I can't see how someone could knowingly risk salvation that way.

Thoughts???
[/quote]

If one commits a mortal sin in the knowledge that one can confess it later, then two serious sins are involved. The sin committed and the additional sin of presumption and presuming on God's Mercy. There is a vast difference, though both serious, of committing a mortal sin and then immediately after not perturbed by what one has done, realizing it can be forgiven in a Good Confession - and committing a mortal sin with the foreknowledge that one can go ahead and do what one likes and then have it forgiven in Confession.

Trust in God's Mercy and Presuming on God's Mercy are a question of attitude and one's relationship with The Lord. In presumption I feel I have a right to God's Mercy (as in committing a mortal sin or even a venial sin knowing and presuming it will be forgiven). This has an aspect of almost derision of The Lord and actually has a non understanding of sin per se and does betray a warped relationship with Him putting oneself over and above God. In trusting confidently in Hope in God's Mercy is an attitude of knowing clearly that one does not deserve in any way God's Loving Mercy, but trusting confidently in Hope that He will be Merciful. It has an aspect of "Fear of The Lord" (one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit in Confirmation). Fear of The Lord is not afraid of The Lord, rather the gift of Fear of The Lord is increasingly conscious of the great abyss between God and His creature, of God's Great Holiness and Majesty, His Splendour, and one's lowly and weak status as a sinner (and an understatement). Only God can bridge this great abyss (which is another understatement) and He bridges it in and with His Loving Mercy.

Edited September 2, 2012 by BarbaraTherese

[Liudger]

I would add that if one assumes God's forgiveness beforehand, it will be much harder to be really contrite after one has committed the sin and thus it will be harder to make a good confession and be forgiven. I am sure that, in such a case, I would think: "But I knew that it was wrong before I did it, so how can I be truly sorry now?" I would feel like a hypocrite and rightly so. This could easily lead to despair which in turn could lead one to give up seeking God's forgiveness; the conscience being numbed or paralysed by the loss of the virtue of hope (and through that the loss of the virtues of faith and charity). It would therefore be very foolish even to entertain the thought "I can do it and confess it later" as a credible alternative to doing one's duty.

[sixpence]

You guys are some help It is Obvious that it is terrible to "presume" on God's mercy...we don't need to state that 100 times.

I have not found a satisfactory answer to the question: Is it ever possible for someone who trusts in God's mercy to commit a mortal sin without AUTOMATICALLY ALSO presuming?