Obedience, Stability, Conversion Of Life Vs Poverty, Chastity, Obedien

[Gabriela]

Hi all,

I am comparing the vows of the Cistercians with the Franciscans, and having trouble figuring out the difference, [i]practically speaking[/i]. I mean, the Cistercians take vows of obedience, stability, and conversion of life, and the Franciscans take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. But on a day-to-day basis, they live very much the same, so, given their lifestyle commitments, Cistercians [i]might as well[/i] take vows of poverty and chastity, and Franciscans [i]might as well[/i] take vows of stability and conversion of life.

Am I being clear here?

If anyone knows how this difference of vows makes a [i]practical[/i] difference, please enlighten me!

Thanks!

[Lisa]

In my limited understanding, stability is one of the main differences. In the Benedictine and Cistercians tradition, that means you profess a vow to live in that abbey. Franciscans can be moved around to different mission houses, even different provinces/priories, etc, if there was a need for it. Moving is part of obedience; if your superior sends you, you go. With the vow of stability, it is of the same importance as obedience; the superior simply couldn't send you elsewhere, once you have taken vows.

ETA: But I'm not a benedictine. So... if I'm wrong, please please please correct me.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Lisa

[Egidio]

Lisa, you pretty much have it.

The monk is he who has the vow of stability, however that vow can be transferred to another house if there is need, eg the opening of a new monastery. It seems that the monks do profess poverty and celibacy.

The friar, while professing the three evangelical counsels, does not have the obligation of remaining in the house where he entered. He is free, according to the obedience received, to be sent anywhere in the world where there is need. In the 12th chapter of the Franciscan rule, it give the friars the option of volunteering for the missions, with the stipulation that only those suitable shall be permitted to go. (The Marian Vow of the F.I.s bypasses all that and makes every friar by profession a missionary).

The other REALLY MAJOR DIFFERENCE, is how the vow of poverty is lived. Monks, like friars, possess nothing personally, but unlike friars, they can possess collectively. So a monastery can own land, buildings, etc, while friars would only be using someone else's property and own nothing, either personally or collectively. The main reason for this is that the monks would live off the produce that their land could produce, whereas friars would live off divine providence, and if the table was a little bare, they would resort to begging, hence friars are known as mendicants, which means beggars.

This is a very brief explanation, the history of the two forms of religious life can be quite complex, but I think you get the idea. Let me know if you want more specifics.

AVE MARIA!!

PS. Lisa, I believe that you are about to enter religious life. May the Blessed Virgin guide, protect and strengthen you. Be assured of my prayers for your perseverance.

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

Hi curiousing,

I'm currently a Benedictine novice, and the Benedictines and Cistercians are very similar (the Cistercians broke off from the Benedictines a few centuries ago). Practically speaking, the differnces between the vows that Cistercians/Benedictines take and those the Franciscans take is, as Lisa stated, stability, and then also which vows are more emphasised. Those that follow the Rule of St. Benedict tend to focus more on obedience. The first three verses of the Rule point this out pretty well:

"Listen carefully, my son, to the master's instructions, and attend to them with the ear of your heart. This is advice from a father who loves you; welcome it, and faithfully put it into practice. The labor of obedience will bring you back to him from whom you had drifted through the sloth of disobedience. This message of mine is for you, then, if you are ready to give up your own will, once and for all, and armed with the strong and noble weapons of obedience to do battle for the true King, Christ the Lord."

For the follower of Benedict, obedience is tantamount. In contrast, Franciscans tend to focus on poverty more than the other vows. This is not to say that they do not follow obedience, or that Benedictines don't live in poverty. They both follow all of the evangelical councils (poverty, chastity, and obedience): it's simply a matter of what is emphasized more.

Something else to keep in mind is that the vow of conversion of life embraces both poverty and chastity, but they are part of the larger whole of being open to daily conversion and constantly growing closer to Christ. I think the following page gives a good explanation of the three monastic vows. [url="http://www.marmionvocations.org/vocations/Monastic_Vows.html"]http://www.marmionvocations.org/vocations/Monastic_Vows.html[/url]

One more thing about poverty. I have heard it said that the ways that Franciscans and Cistericans/Benedictines follow poverty is very different. Franciscans follow the poverty of Christ on the Cross, having absolutely nothing, while Cistericans/Benedictines follow the poverty of Christ at Nazareth: having the essentials, but everything held in common (like the Holy Family). Does this help at all?

[Gabriela]

All of this helps. Thank you very much to all!

[stlmom]

I am not a Benedictine, but have read a bit on early monasticism. One of the problems Benedict encountered in his day were "wandering monks"--apparently they were monks who never really did invest themselves in the "conversion of life" of their supposed vocation. They would come and go, mooching off what was offered in a given location in the way of food and shelter, not contributing much and were a drain and disruption to a community. It is speculated that Benedict was trying to correct this behavior by requiring his monks to vow themselves to one place. If I am incorrect in this explanation, would a real Benedictine please step in and clarify?

[Egidio]

[quote name='NazFarmer' timestamp='1345994309' post='2474439']


For the follower of Benedict, obedience is tantamount. In contrast, Franciscans tend to focus on poverty more than the other vows. This is not to say that they do not follow obedience, or that Benedictines don't live in poverty. They both follow all of the evangelical councils (poverty, chastity, and obedience): it's simply a matter of what is emphasized more.


[/quote]

Just a little correction from a Franciscan.

St Francis was VERY concerned about obedience! There have been interpretations of the Franciscan rule which try to reduce it solely to poverty aspect, but it is SOOOO much more than that. In fact the poverty of the Franciscan is supposed to be a natural consequence of his recognition that God will take care of him. BTW, St Francis once promised that no friar would ever die of starvation, and this has held out even to today (see the life of st Maximilian!!).

In a phrase, the Franciscan spirituality is one that is very evangelical, as the 1st and last chapter of the Seraphic rule point out:

Chapter 1 - [color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]The rule and life of the friars is this: [/size][/font][/color][color=#ff0000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]To observe the holy gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ[/size][/font][font='Times New Roman'][size=1], living in obedience without anything of our own, and in chastity[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]. Brother Francis promises obedience and reverence to the Lord Pope Honorius and his canonically elected successors, and to the Roman Church; and the rest of the brothers are obliged to obey Francis and his successors.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]Chapter 12 - [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]Whoever should, by divine inspiration, wish to go among the Saracens and other infidels must ask permission from their provincial ministers. The ministers should grant permission only to those whom they consider qualified to be sent.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
I enjoin the ministers by obedience to ask the Lord Pope for a cardinal of the Holy Roman Church to serve as governor, protector and corrector of their brotherhood so that we servants and subjects at the feet of holy church, firm in faith, [color=#ff0000]will always observe the poverty, humility and holy gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which we firmly promised.[/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[color=#000080]AVE MARIA![/color][/size][/font][/color]

[Egidio]

Just so you might actually be able to read these chapters....

Chapter 1 - [size=3][size=4][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman]The rule and life of the friars is this: [/font][/color][color=#FF0000][font=Times New Roman]To observe the holy gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ[/font][font=Times New Roman], living in obedience without anything of our own, and in chastity[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman]. Brother Francis promises obedience and reverence to the Lord Pope Honorius and his canonically elected successors, and to the Roman Church; and the rest of the brothers are obliged to obey Francis and his successors.[/font][/color][/size][/size]

[size=4][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman]Chapter 12 - Whoever should, by divine inspiration, wish to go among the Saracens and other infidels must ask permission from their provincial ministers. The ministers should grant permission only to those whom they consider qualified to be sent.[/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman]I enjoin the ministers by obedience to ask the Lord Pope for a cardinal of the Holy Roman Church to serve as governor, protector and corrector of their brotherhood so that we servants and subjects at the feet of holy church, firm in faith, [color=#FF0000]will always observe the poverty, humility and holy gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which we firmly promised.[/color][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][color=#000080]AVE MARIA![/color][/font][/color][/size]

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

[quote name='Egidio' timestamp='1346017877' post='2474552']
Just a little correction from a Franciscan.

St Francis was VERY concerned about obedience! There have been interpretations of the Franciscan rule which try to reduce it solely to poverty aspect, but it is SOOOO much more than that. In fact the poverty of the Franciscan is supposed to be a natural consequence of his recognition that God will take care of him. BTW, St Francis once promised that no friar would ever die of starvation, and this has held out even to today (see the life of st Maximilian!!).

In a phrase, the Franciscan spirituality is one that is very evangelical, as the 1st and last chapter of the Seraphic rule point out:

Chapter 1 - [color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1]The rule and life of the friars is this: [/size][/font][/color][color=#ff0000][font=Times New Roman][size=1]To observe the holy gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ[/size][/font][font=Times New Roman][size=1], living in obedience without anything of our own, and in chastity[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1]. Brother Francis promises obedience and reverence to the Lord Pope Honorius and his canonically elected successors, and to the Roman Church; and the rest of the brothers are obliged to obey Francis and his successors.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1]Chapter 12 - [/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1]Whoever should, by divine inspiration, wish to go among the Saracens and other infidels must ask permission from their provincial ministers. The ministers should grant permission only to those whom they consider qualified to be sent.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1]I enjoin the ministers by obedience to ask the Lord Pope for a cardinal of the Holy Roman Church to serve as governor, protector and corrector of their brotherhood so that we servants and subjects at the feet of holy church, firm in faith, [color=#ff0000]will always observe the poverty, humility and holy gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which we firmly promised.[/color][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1][color=#000080]AVE MARIA![/color][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
Edigo,

I am sorry about that. I did not mean to imply that obedience was not important for Franciscans, and if that came across I am very sorry.

I don't remember where I first hear this, but I think it was when I visited Subiaco. I heard that St. Francis stayed at Subiaco for a little while before he started the Franciscan Order, and that to this day many Benedictine and Franciscan houses which are near to each other invite the other over for dinner on the feast of their respective founders. Also, one of (if not the) oldest frescoes of St. Francis is at Subiaco, and it is of Francis without the stigmata: many scholars believe that it must have been painted while Francis was still alive and before he had the stigmata.

Again, I am sorry if I came across as knocking the Franciscans in any way: I have a great respect for the Franciscan Order and for St. Francis in particular: I grew up with a Franciscan nun as the DRE at my parish. I apparently don't know as much about St. Francis as I thought I did, though, haha!

God bless!

Novice Joe

edited for grammar

Edited August 27, 2012 by NazFarmer

[emmaberry]

I just read a really great bio of the Seraphic Saint Francis, and he spoke of Lady Poverty every other breath! It was beautiful to see how devoted he was to poverty.

So, NazFarmer, I totally see where you are coming from. But Egidio is definitely right (especially since he is the Franciscan/expert!)...Saint Francis did not just see Lady poverty in the vow of poverty, but in the renunciation of all self-will. Saint Francis' love of poverty colors the three vows Franciscans take. So they are just as devoted to obedience and chastity as other orders, but you are correct that there is a different emphasis.

I have really enjoyed this thread-thanks curiousing!

[Egidio]

[quote name='NazFarmer' timestamp='1346031790' post='2474632']


Again, I am sorry if I came across as knocking the Franciscans in any way: I have a great respect for the Franciscan Order and for St. Francis in particular: I grew up with a Franciscan nun as the DRE at my parish. I apparently don't know as much about St. Francis as I thought I did, though, haha!


[/quote]

Absolutely no offence taken. Usually people think that St Francis was some kind of greenie hippie, so i would much rather he was thought of as just a poor man, in fact that Is what he called himself, the[i] Poverello,[/i] the little poor man!

There is a beautiful fresco of st Francis in Subiaco, but i believe it was Mt Subasio, above Assisi that had a special relationship with St Francis. It was from the monks of Mt Subasio that St Francis rented the Church of Our Lady of the Angels (the Portiuncula), at the cost of two fish a year!

Unfortunately Mt Subasio is now abandoned, so if anyone feels inclined to start up a monastic community, there is a beautiful old monastery waiting for you!

MAy God Bless you and strengthen you during your novitiate....

AVE MARIA!!

[Gabriela]

All very good! But now I have a follow-up question:

Given the [i]greater emphasis[/i] of Benedictines on obedience, is there a difference in how their houses are run? I have spoken to quite a few Franciscan sisters, and they often mention voting when decisions need to be made. Do Benedictines also make decisions in this democratic fashion, or do they just allow their superiors to decide? (Obviously, even among Franciscans the superior gets the final word. But they do vote...)

[Maximilianus]

Too bad Staretz (Br. Bruno) is not around, he would have some insight on the Benedictine way.

[Egidio]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1346099079' post='2474993']
All very good! But now I have a follow-up question:

Given the [i]greater emphasis[/i] of Benedictines on obedience, is there a difference in how their houses are run? I have spoken to quite a few Franciscan sisters, and they often mention voting when decisions need to be made. Do Benedictines also make decisions in this democratic fashion, or do they just allow their superiors to decide? (Obviously, even among Franciscans the superior gets the final word. But they do vote...)
[/quote]

Each different institute of Franciscans (OFM, OFM. Conv, OFM. Cap, CFR, F.I., etc, etc, etc) would have a different set of constitutions. Within the constitutions are found the method by which decisions within the community are made. Each superior of the communities would use this as a guide, and then implement it using his prudent judgement.

In the community of which I am [unworthily] a member, the constitutions state that each friar certainly may contribute his thoughts, ideas and suggestions, but (as you say) the superior has the last word. We do not have voting within the community, but there is certainly always room for discussion and humble debate.

Regarding obedience, it is true that the friar and the monk live obedience is slightly different manner, but I would hesitate to say that the friars put [i]less emphasis[/i] on their vow of obedience than the monks; (but this might just be semantics )

AVE MARIA!!