My Debate On The Immaculate Conception

[phatcatholic]

pham,

[url="http://p197.ezboard.com/fformercatholicsforchristfrm1.showMessage?topicID=7564.topic"][b]here[/b][/url] is a debate i am currently having on the sinlessness of Mary. i am phatcatholic. my "opponent" (for lack of a better word) is garee.

please let me know if there is anything i should add, detract, change, or clarify in order to make this a more effective defense.

thank you all,
phatcatholic

[Theoketos]

Off the top of my head with out much more then a skim...

Emphasize that Mary is not equal to God, God is Humble, and Mary is a means for Him to humble hims


It is mericful for other to pray for us, Having mercy would thus mean that she would be praying for us. She would thus not be forgiving our sins, only Jesus does this.

[the lumberjack]

to a non catholic that had no idea what you're talking about, it doesn't matter what you say, its the words you say... so whether or not you mean them one way or another...

and if you were to try to explain it like that to someone it would seem to them (and me) like a GRIP of double talk...

just my opinion...

God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

You would have to type it all out for me to see it

I'm

[phatcatholic]

double-talk? i don't understand what you mean.....

[the lumberjack]

awright phatcath, peep this,

a noncatholic Christian, with very little to no understanding of Catholic lingo or ritual, could EASILY solidify within themselves a very high place of indignation for the Catholic Church...

see, first there's the Mary "thing"...you know...how the Catholic Church views her, and how most of protestantism views her...

second, there's the use of words that "kind of mean ONE THING" but we use to "kind of" mean another thing which kind of means almost the same thing, but not quite...

like 'Mary having "mercy" on sinners'...that could VERY easily be misconstrued by any non catholic christian to mean that catholics think that mary is some kind of deity...and being quite honest with you...thats what it kind of makes me think.

God bless

[Aloysius]

and that when it comes down to the fact that Catholic terminology is the original meaning of the word not the connation society has imposed upon it.

Catholics use the dictionary:

mer·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrs)
n. pl. mer·cies
1. Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.
2. [b]A disposition to be kind and forgiving: a heart full of mercy. [/b]
3. Something for which to be thankful; a blessing: It was a mercy that no one was hurt.
4. Alleviation of distress; relief: Taking in the refugees was an act of mercy.


we are all called to be merciful. there ya go, not double speak; ENGLISH speak.

Pax Amorque Christi

[point5]

Ive read some of the debate. I have a tim staples vhs that clears up alot of stuff...also the adio section of your apologetics reference page has some audio of timstaples.

Im inclined to believe that you know much of the information I am about to present, but these are the most hard hitting points that led me to believe.

Some key points I take are

The original translation of "Hail...full of grace"
I cant spell the translation so I wont attempt to, but the "full of grace" is so dope because it is not and adjective and noun, but a name...literally translating as she who has been perfected in grace...past presence and future...and ongoing state. Different from the adjective and noun used when saying Stephen when full of grace...which he was, but only for that particular time, as the church teaches all martyrs go immediatly to heaven. The fact that the angel gives this to her and as a name is extremely signifigant especially in hebrew culture. Anytime a name is given or changed is to be read very carefully.

second is comparing the many references scripturally with the ark of the covenant as a typology to mary the new ark. I can give you verses if you need but im sure you are aware or know how to obtain them. It is amazing all the references, its basically obvious she is the new ark. Then when comparing the consruction and preparation of the ark you see how no sinless man was to touch it...it had extremely fine tuned plans for constuction and was made perfectly.

Also comparing her to the new eve another old testament typology. There are many different scripture correlations here also which I will refrain from giving because I dont have them on hand and I know you prolly know them. Who were the only woman born without original sin....EVE, and if you say she was without it but mary was not then you are putting Eve on a higher level than Mary which is absurd when you understand her to be the new EVE. The real Eve was just a typology of what was to come.

In response to his all have sinned verses its actually more simple than you make it. Jesus did not sin (im not sure if you used this rebuttle, but it seems the most obvious to me). If they try to use that jesus was God and that God didnt sin that get too close to a Christolgical heresy. They cant distinguish Jesus as two people, its not a schizophrenic Jesus. Jesus is fully human and fully God, and would therefore fall under the all have sinned verses, which is not true for he did not sin...then then must not mean "all" in the way most people read, but in the way you described to him.

hope this helps...I can get more...tell me if you already used it or knew it, I didnt have time to read everything in the debate.

pax
Kiel

[phatcatholic]

kiel,

i would like some more info on "full of grace" as a name for mary, and how this is different from the same phrase used to describe stephen.

thanks,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

point5...........holla back

[Aloysius]

ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΧΑΙΡΕ [b]ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ [/b]Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ

[quote][b]ΧΑΡΙΤΟΩ[/b],v  {khar-ee-to'-o}
1) to make graceful  1a) charming, lovely, agreeable  2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour  3) to honour with blessings [/quote]

that's just the base of the word, ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ is the form of the word that is the perfect past, present, and future form of that verb. It prooves beyond all shadow of a doubt that she was full of grace her entire life from birth to death. "full of grace" is an expression used to mean upright and unblemished, with no seperation to God. To say that one is "full of grace" their entire life, means it is impossible for that person to have sinned at any point in their life, because then at that point in their life when they sinned they would lake some grace and not be fully unblemished.

and the expression comes back for stephen

ΣΤΕΦΑΝΟΣ ΔΕ [b]ΠΛΗΡΗΣ ΧΑΡΙΤΟΣ [/b]ΚΑΙ ΔΥΝΑΜΕΩΣ ΕΠΟΙΕΙ ΤΕΡΑΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΣΗΜΕΙΑ ΜΕΓΑΛΑ ΕΝ ΤΩ ΛΑΩ

[quote][b]ΠΛΗΡΗΣ[/b],a  {play'-race}
1) full, i.e. filled up (as opposed to empty)  1a) of hollow vessels  1b) of a surface, covered in every part  1c) of the soul, thoroughly permeated with  2) full, i.e. complete  2a) lacking nothing, perfect [/quote]
[quote][b]ΧΑΡΙΣ[/b],n  {khar'-ece}
1) grace  1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm,  loveliness: grace of speech  2) good will, loving-kindness, favour  2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy  influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens,  increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and  kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues  3) what is due to grace  3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of  divine grace  3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit  3b1) a gift of grace  3b2) benefit, bounty  4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward [/quote]

this is clearly the same expression, but also very clearly a present form. Stephen, at that moment, is full/perfected with grace. While Mary was always perfect with grace, stephen was perfected with grace and thus full of grace at that moment.

I hope that helps

Pax Amorque Christi

[phatcatholic]

do you have any proof that the phrase for mary is written in past, present, and future tense, but the phrase for stephen is written in only present tense?

i feel that in order for me to make this claim about tenses in my debate i must be able to back it up.

thanks,
phatcatholic

[point5]

It seems Aloysius has given the adequate info I was trying to relay on "hail...full of grace". Let me know if you need more and Ill see what I can do...that is basically what I was gonna write as well. Those two seperate mentions of "full of grace" are very different as Aloysius mentions, by definition.

Another helpful tool in seeing how the angel uses this verb as a name (namin Mary: she who has been perfected in grace) is the fact that the angel says ΧΑΙΡΕ (hail), a term to show royalty (examples in the bible, hail ceasar, and even Hail King of the jews, although mocking it is still implying royalty). A key thing to note is that when this rare word was said, it was ALWAYS followed by a NAME. That is a huge implication that ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ or "she who has been perfected in grace" is a name the angel gives to Mary. We are aware of how important new names are in the bible, and this one is no different.

pax
-Kiel aka Moses the Black

ps The reason stephens is different is because fo the different words used. Marys "full of grace" is a VERB and I have read it is better translated as "she who has been perfected in grace". Stephens is two seperate words as opposed to Marys one. His are an adjective "full of" and a noun "grace". Stephens words used do not imply anything about him being full of grace in the past or future, that at that present moment when he is martyred, which makes sense. Marys one word, ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ, does not imply the same thing as Aloysius mentioned. Hope that helps.

Edited May 23, 2004 by point5

[point5]

bump for phat catholic

[phatcatholic]

actually, i haven't had the opportunity to use this particular argument yet. when i find a good opening, i'll use it. also, i think i need to read up on this and make sure i am well aquainted w/ it. i'm not accustomed to referring to the Greek or Hebrew behind a passage in my apologetics.

thanks,
phatcatholic