Death Penalty And Pro Life

[Anomaly]

I don't believe anyone is saying let's kill people because they're inconvenient.

It's long been established that first degree murder is a very serious crime against humanity and some serious crimes against life deserve appropriate punishment, the Death Penalty. It's a relatively NEW Catholic idea that DP should be defered for two reasons, ie 1- If the agressor is rendered harmless and 2- To provide opportunity to repent.

The reality of prisons is some persons still pose a threat to other prisoners and guards. They aren't going to change their minds.
The reality of SuperMax prisons that human attempts to protect guards and prisoners from these people create such a harsh environment that their mental capacity is destroyed, eliminating any realistic ability to repent. These prison conditions are inflicted not only on the homocidal, but others that are sent to these prisons because you need to have enough persons in these facilities to make them economically viable.

We're human. Enforced solitary confinement for years/decades is extremely debilitating to mental health. It's a false hope that any significant remorse or repentance is going to occur after a few years of solitary confinement since these people are going to be driven insane and incapable. There is also the consideration of inflicting these people or the conditions of the prison required to house them onto other prisoners, a detriment to other's ability for remorse, rehabilitation, or repentance.

We've changed laws and it has to be a pretty serious crime to EARN a death penalty. We're human and do the best we can at human justice.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346776926' post='2478281']
I don't believe anyone is saying let's kill people because they're inconvenient.

It's long been established that first degree murder is a very serious crime against humanity and some serious crimes against life deserve appropriate punishment, the Death Penalty. It's a relatively NEW Catholic idea that DP should be defered for two reasons, ie 1- If the agressor is rendered harmless and 2- To provide opportunity to repent.

The reality of prisons is some persons still pose a threat to other prisoners and guards. They aren't going to change their minds.
The reality of SuperMax prisons that human attempts to protect guards and prisoners from these people create such a harsh environment that their mental capacity is destroyed, eliminating any realistic ability to repent. These prison conditions are inflicted not only on the homocidal, but others that are sent to these prisons because you need to have enough persons in these facilities to make them economically viable.

We're human. Enforced solitary confinement for years/decades is extremely debilitating to mental health. It's a false hope that any significant remorse or repentance is going to occur after a few years of solitary confinement since these people are going to be driven insane and incapable. There is also the consideration of inflicting these people or the conditions of the prison required to house them onto other prisoners, a detriment to other's ability for remorse, rehabilitation, or repentance.

We've changed laws and it has to be a pretty serious crime to EARN a death penalty. We're human and do the best we can at human justice.
[/quote]

but do innocent men get killed used the death penalty? is it used disproprtionatly(sp) based on color of skin? is it used in instances where the murderer is no threat to the guards and other inmates? obviously not everyone has repented but some have repented and trying to change and yet they still get the death penalty when there is no need to other than revenge.

also and i will ask this again. does america have the capabilities to fix the prison system? if so then that means we use the death penalty as convience not necessity. that's a problem i have with it. this system could be fixed but america chooses not to and instead falls back on the death pnealty and solitary confinement. i don't think using the death penalty because amerieca is to lazy or to scared to fix the system is right. fix the system first then talk to me about who should be executed for saftey reasons. the system is broke. why support a broken system.

[Anomaly]

I'm not an expert on the prison system, but given the Hundreds of Millions of dollars the US spends on SuperMax prisons, I wouldn't consider the US is doing NOTHING. I beleive we are expending a good amount of effort.

I also consider appropriate punishment for crimes they have been tried and convicted of, and given a proportional punishment. I also consider the prisoners who have been convicted of lesser crimes and given lesser sentences but experiencing debilitating incarceration that drives them insane to protect them from convicted murderers that have demonstrated no value for the lives of others. What about justice for them? Why can't those prisoners serve there terms with reasonable safety and reasonable freedom while in prison?

The systems isn't perfect, but it's not completely broken. We differ on opinion regarding the US Justice System. We are talking about people convicted of intentionally murdering another human, we aren't talking about someone who killed someone for drunk driving.

You are okay that non-murdering prisoners and guards need to risk their physical and mental health to accomodate convicted murderers that have consistently posed a threat to do harm to others. You are okay with prisoners being subjected to solitary confinement that further damages their mental health so when they are released, they aren't able to successfully function in society again. I don't consider that damage and threat inflicted by a minority on others 'justice', absence of ability to inflict harm, or no longer posing a threat to society.

I don't see where the God who ordered Isrealites to kill every man, woman, and child in conquered cities; turned people to pillars of salt for momentary weakness; drowned men, women, and children; condoned stoning adulterers; or a Religion that supported killing "heretics"; supported the death penalty for political dissenters; conducted religous crusades for geo-political purposes, etc., having any credibility in creating a new philosophy that everyone must suffer to keep unremorseful murders alive.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346786361' post='2478359']
I'm not an expert on the prison system, but given the Hundreds of Millions of dollars the US spends on SuperMax prisons, I wouldn't consider the US is doing NOTHING. I beleive we are expending a good amount of effort.

I also consider appropriate punishment for crimes they have been tried and convicted of, and given a proportional punishment. I also consider the prisoners who have been convicted of lesser crimes and given lesser sentences but experiencing debilitating incarceration that drives them insane to protect them from convicted murderers that have demonstrated no value for the lives of others. What about justice for them? Why can't those prisoners serve there terms with reasonable safety and reasonable freedom while in prison?

The systems isn't perfect, but it's not completely broken. We differ on opinion regarding the US Justice System. We are talking about people convicted of intentionally murdering another human, we aren't talking about someone who killed someone for drunk driving.

You are okay that non-murdering prisoners and guards need to risk their physical and mental health to accomodate convicted murderers that have consistently posed a threat to do harm to others. You are okay with prisoners being subjected to solitary confinement that further damages their mental health so when they are released, they aren't able to successfully function in society again. I don't consider that damage and threat inflicted by a minority on others 'justice', absence of ability to inflict harm, or no longer posing a threat to society.

I don't see where the God who ordered Isrealites to kill every man, woman, and child in conquered cities; turned people to pillars of salt for momentary weakness; drowned men, women, and children; condoned stoning adulterers; or a Religion that supported killing "heretics"; supported the death penalty for political dissenters; conducted religous crusades for geo-political purposes, etc., having any credibility in creating a new philosophy that everyone must suffer to keep unremorseful murders alive.
[/quote]

i agree we are expanding a lot of effort. although the effort is in all th wrong places. as we have learned with education, just throwing money at the problem does not fix the problem.

well right now we have some seperate prison system. super max and lesser facilities where prisons can order take out and such. so there is some seperation bhut obviously not enough.


i am ok with prison guards risking their lives daily. just like i am ok with emt's firefighters and police doing it on a daily basis. as a paramedic, should i not have to deal with the pt who is on pcp(where i live pcp is a hughe problem), has no feeling of pain and has the ability to seriously hurt or kill me? should i be able to deny them medical treatment because i am at risk. part of certain jobs involve risks. applying to work as a prison guard brings risks. the person applying knows this. same as cops, emts and firefighters. all these jobs involve possibly being killed by someone else. should all these jobs be exempt from dealing with dangerous criminals. taking police away, should medical personal be allowed to let someone die because they could be seriously injured or kill?

i am not ok with solitary confinement right now. i am against the prison system. although instead of just using the death penalty as a solution why not fix the system where other prisoners are not in high degree's of danger from others. obviously with any prison system, prisoners will be in some sort of danger because criminals are in prison. although the US could take better steps to protect them from other prisoners.

i don't agree with using the death penalty when innocent men are killed by it and we later find out they were innocent. also the system is unequal when it comes to race. why should we use a system that is broken and that kils innocent men and is unequal depending upon the color of your skin? are you ok with a system that has kill innocent men? where is justice for them? where is justice for the innocent man on death row right now? why use a system right now that we know will kill innocent people?

i say first fix the system and then we can talk about using the death penalty. i don;t think its unresonable to want a better and more equal prison system.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346776926' post='2478281']
I don't believe anyone is saying let's kill people because they're inconvenient.
[/quote]
That's not what I've been getting! Danger to staff and other lesser prisoners. Millions of dollars spent on supermax prisons. No chance of rehabilitation. The only non inconvenient reason that I have seen is, first degree murder warrants the death penalty. In other words the eye for an eye theory.

[quote]
It's a relatively NEW Catholic idea that DP should be defered for two reasons, ie 1- If the agressor is rendered harmless and 2- To provide opportunity to repent.[/quote]
This may send a lot of fundy Catholics thermal. But Vatican 2 is pretty much a statement that the Church has realised that like the rest of us it doesn't know (expletive) and IMO it has made a pretty admiral account of putting things right. I think being a kind and gentle atheist is a little easier than being a Christian. You only have to satisfy your conscience and your intelligence. As Christians we have to take it a little bit further and justify things in the light of the laws of a perfectly benevolent being who has allowed all this evil and insoluble problems to occur for a purpose which we cannot see.

[quote]The reality of prisons is some persons still pose a threat to other prisoners and guards.[/quote]
But this applies to all prisoners. Embezzlers can become violent when their liberty has been taken away from them and they become resentful of a highly disciplined life.

[quote]
The reality of SuperMax prisons that human attempts to protect guards and prisoners from these people create such a harsh environment that their mental capacity is destroyed, eliminating any realistic ability to repent.[/quote]
That's a pretty broad statement though. There are people in our parish who are very mentally challenged and ill. Yet they are also amongst our most devout and caring people. Mental illness does not remove a persons soul! And neither does a harsh life. Consider the difference between the Catholic college in my town in Oz compared to the college in Baucau, East Timor. The easy spoilt life in Oz breeds foul mouthed brats with chips on their shoulders. Whereas we get quite the reverse with kid's that eat one meal of rice and beans a day if they're lucky. They also are locked in a kind of prison where there is not so much as a bit of rock free ground to play a game on.


[quote]We're human. Enforced solitary confinement for years/decades is extremely debilitating to mental health. It's a false hope that any significant remorse or repentance is going to occur after a few years of solitary confinement since these people are going to be driven insane and incapable. There is also the consideration of inflicting these people or the conditions of the prison required to house them onto other prisoners, a detriment to other's ability for remorse, rehabilitation, or repentance.[/quote]
There are stories where people who have been incarcerated in inhumane foreign prisons for decades and have survived to come out and do good works. Many Indigenous people in good conditions have been quickly driven to suicide. So really the only way of addressing your complaint is to assess peoples mental state and execute anyone who is not coping. Pretty sad for minor offenders.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346786361' post='2478359']
I'm not an expert on the prison system, but given the Hundreds of Millions of dollars the US spends on SuperMax prisons, I wouldn't consider the US is doing NOTHING. I beleive we are expending a good amount of effort.
[/quote]
That's a problem that's right across the board though. We have a shortage of medical facilities. Children die waiting for operations. Yet we spend money on prisons, nursing homes and animal welfare organisations. Prioritising is inhumane because someone would need to play God and it often ends up being someone who is the least capable.


[quote]Why can't those prisoners serve there terms with reasonable safety and reasonable freedom while in prison?[/quote]
Being a student in a school is pretty dangerous apparently.
I don't know about the US, but it usually has to be pretty serious to get a prison term in Oz. Generally it seems the cry is our justice system is too lenient. So don't commit a serious crime.

[quote]
I don't see where the God who ordered Isrealites to kill every man, woman, and child in conquered cities; turned people to pillars of salt for momentary weakness; drowned men, women, and children; condoned stoning adulterers; or a Religion that supported killing "heretics"; supported the death penalty for political dissenters; conducted religous crusades for geo-political purposes, etc., having any credibility in creating a new philosophy that everyone must suffer to keep unremorseful murders alive.[/quote]
This is a little off topic, but that's not my religion! Jesus may have said "I came not to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfil!" Since much of what he taught is the polar opposite to the OT stories, I assume he wasn't validating the entire OT. The laws he was not destroying are ones such as the 10 commandments. Incidentally he replaced them with 2 which pretty much cover all the valid laws. eg. He contradicted the law of stoning people for adultery and introduced his own. He said of Peter being the founding rock of his Church, not the OT pharisees who only do lip service. And by Peter he is referring to those who [u]teach and practice[/u] his doctrine. You should take those OT questions up with followers of Judaism, Islam or Militant fundamental Christians. Archeology and science has pretty much proved that the OT is not a historical document and neither does it purport to be.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346739492' post='2478192']
give me solitary confinement for 10 years or give me 10 straight years of terrorist phsyical torture tactics.... yeah, not the same, not even close.

psychological illness is real and a real problem. but to say solitary confinement is one the same level or worse than some real torture techniques just shows your going overboard to prove your point.
[/quote]

Well with all your evidence, I just changed my mind completely! /sarcasm. There's much literature on the harms of solitary confinement. And because you think you'd fair well in a 9x9 cell with almost no human contact doesn't mean jack croutons to me really. You haven't disproved my point, merely stated you don't *think* solitary is all that bad.


[quote]
so i'll ask... do you think everyone in solitary confinement should be lined up and shot?
[/quote]

Yes. This is obviously what I've been saying all along! I'm glad you're finally getting it.

[quote]is that the more humane thing to do? just kill them all and be done with it? heck why stop there. prisons are bad to. how much rape, assaults, killings, abuse goes on in there. we might as well kill all them instead of having them deal with what awaits in prison for them. let's be really humane and just kill everyone in the prison system. according to the arguements, this would be the humane thing to do.[/quote]

The pretense of getting rid of the dp is that we have others ways of keeping society safe. It has been thoroughly demonstrated that the current system is not safe for inmates, guards, and by extension pepole who are affected by prison-run crime syndacates on the outside. But good on you for avoiding that problem and setting up a pretty little caricature of everything I've said for yourself.



gooodbye.

[Nihil Obstat]

I think the best part of debate threads is when Ice_Nine gets riled up and starts talking funny.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346739492' post='2478192']
give me solitary confinement for 10 years or give me 10 straight years of terrorist phsyical torture tactics.... yeah, not the same, not even close.
[/quote]

At the same time, one may say that sensory deprivation is also a form of torture.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1346814419' post='2478603']
Well with all your evidence, I just changed my mind completely! /sarcasm. There's much literature on the harms of solitary confinement. And because you think you'd fair well in a 9x9 cell with almost no human contact doesn't mean jack croutons to me really. You haven't disproved my point, merely stated you don't *think* solitary is all that bad.




Yes. This is obviously what I've been saying all along! I'm glad you're finally getting it.



The pretense of getting rid of the dp is that we have others ways of keeping society safe. It has been thoroughly demonstrated that the current system is not safe for inmates, guards, and by extension pepole who are affected by prison-run crime syndacates on the outside. But good on you for avoiding that problem and setting up a pretty little caricature of everything I've said for yourself.



gooodbye.
[/quote]

you just agreed with my point. you said the system is broken. this is exactly what i have been saying. the difference is you are fine the way the system is even though its broken and we should still use it. i say fix the system. a system which kills innocent men, is unequal based on race and gender.

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1346815162' post='2478616']
At the same time, one may say that sensory deprivation is also a form of torture.
[/quote]

solitary confinement is different then sensory deprevation. they are similar in concept but to different.

[Anomaly]

Mark,
It's not a matter of convenience, it's a matter of reasonbly proportional justice, as the Catechism explains:

[b][url="javascript:openWindow('cr/2266.htm');"][color=#0000cd]2266[/color][/b][color=#0000cd] The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.[sup][size="2"]67[/size][/sup] [/color]
[/url][b]<a href="javascript:openWindow('cr/2267.htm');">[color=#0000cd]2267[/color][/b][color=#0000cd] Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the [b]traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty,[/b] if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. [/color]

There is no statement that the death penalty is excluded 'no matter what'.
The Catechism does qualify recurse to the death penalty with: "[color="#0000cd"]if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor."[/color]

This thread was demonstrating the difference between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion. DP is just punishment on a convicted murderer who intentionally took anothers life. Abortion is killing an innocent person who may be inconvenient, but is not harming others with intent.

The point being made about imprisoning convicted murders is addressing the qualifiactions the Catechism points out.
-Are other human lives effectively defended by the unjust agression of convicted murderers who have no remourse or change of heart? I, like others, say no.

Let's talk about the non-lethal attempt at putting murderers in SuperMax prisons and see how they stack up with the guidelines of the Catechism: [color=#0000cd]'[b]If[/b], however, non-lethal [b]means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor[/b], authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in [u]conformity to the dignity of the human person[/u]."[/color]. The conditions of SuperMax prisons do not protect everyone from prisoners who continue to act aggressively against other humans. It doesn't matter if it's other prisoners, guards, or school kids. They weren't convicted of killing or harming others and do not deserve punishment that is disproportional to their offense as discussed in 2266 above.

Now let's proceed on to the higher goals and hopes in providing mercy to those convicted of crimes, from the Catechism 2267, third paragraph: [color=#0000cd]"Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, [b]by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself [/b]- the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."[sup][size="2"]68[/size][/sup] " [/color]I've provided links and information that the best means we have at hand to render persons incapable of inflicting further harm on others, (SuperMax prisons with segregation and isolation of persons for decades), is very destructive to human minds, causing them great mental harm, driving them incapable of redeeming themselves or coming to accept responsiblity and remorse.

I haven't, no have others, called for automatic execution of everyone convicted for murder. The argument and contention is the last sentence of 2267: "-[color="#0000cd"] the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."[sup][size="2"]68"[/size][/sup][/color][color=#0000cd] [/color]I, like some of the Catholics here, are disaggreeing that the conditions of protecting others in society and providing proportional punishment, does not make make cases where execution is a necessity "[color=#0000cd]practically nonexistent[/color]". That is not disagreeing with the philosophical or theological precepts in the Catechism, but a disagreement on prudential evaluation of conditions of civil authorities to protect society, inflict proportional punishment, and provide realistic opportunity for repentance.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote][b][color=#0000cd]2267[/color][/b][color=#0000cd] Assuming that the [/color][color=#ff0000]guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined,[/color][color=#0000cd] the [b]traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty,[/b] [/color][color=#ff0000]if this is the [u][b]only possible way[/b][/u] of effectively defending human lives [/color][color=#0000cd]against the unjust aggressor. [/color][/quote]
To me this is pretty plainly saying that for example if a law enforcer observes a person carrying a machete and moving toward an innocent or himself which he reasonably determines has evil intent, then he may justly resort to lethal force. Dito military activities. It may also cover those countries that do not have the resources to deal with large numbers of prisoners which I have already addressed. I don't know just how far that can be taken and wouldn't like to be in that situation because there are grey areas. People may read what they like into any given text. But Sorry there is no way that I can read into that CCC what you're implying. That where a person could alternately be contained there is still room to justify the DP. Please read CCCs erring on the side of charity because I'm sure they are intended to be charitable.
What about a baby that is a threat to it's mother? My mother was in that situation with my brother. After me or including me, she had several miscarriages and was told when pregnant again that she may die and there was no hope for the child. She chose to leave it to God. Against miraculous odds she gave birth to a 10lb healthy boy who turned out to be really angelic. God took him back at age 16. My mother suffered long till death finally gave her relief. I even thought long and hard about euthanasia and felt in my heart that it would be wrong, that there was something miraculous happening that I did not understand.
In Bali, I believe, people given long prison sentences are put on suicide watch! Why? Suicide is generally considered an easy way out of life when things are too tough and is generally believed to be wrong (complex issues here I won't go into the sins or not of suicide) Now you're telling me that the Church condones giving people (in rare cases so you say) an easy way out by murdering them. Have you read the story of Cain and Abel? This, true story or not, is a lesson. God forbade the death of Cain. His punishment was to live a harsh life with the death of his little brother to think about.
The CC teaches from scripture 'Lazarus and the rich man' that at death each of us receives our recompense whether that be good or bad. End of story bro. and no further correspondence can be entered into! There is also a parable of the brides saying to stay alert. And the thief who was saved minutes prior to death. What I'm getting from this is that it is not over until yer dead, which means while yer alive God still has hope and is still providing an opportunity.


[quote]-Are other human lives effectively defended by the unjust agression of convicted murderers who have no remourse or change of heart? I, like others, say no.[/quote]

Years ago a couple of creeps raped and murdered a couple of innocent school girls. They were given life terms. I wrote an article in the paper calling for the DP and using the money saved on more important issues. I really copped a lot of minus props from people. I consider my change of heart a progression of my spiritual evolution and not a backward step. I would assume that all those people would now be on my side. So it really doesn't worry me what those others you mention think. I'm kool with [u]my[/u] God.

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1346814419' post='2478603']
gooodbye.
[/quote]
Take it easy Sis. As you may know I used to get frustrated and rage face a lot with people. But then I got wise!

Edited September 6, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Ice_nine]

Well Mark, I think the antidepressants had finally worked their way completely out of my system, so for a week or so I wanted to punch everybody in the mouth, and the internet has a tendency to drag out the inner-arse portal in all of us, so I apologize if I came off a little ragey to anyone. oops.

But I still stand by what I said, with perhaps a bit less acrimony. Find a safe way to keep society safe from violent criminals, because at this point it doesn't exist and is a big flooping fairy tale.

Goodday.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1347170846' post='2480515']
Well Mark, I think the antidepressants had finally worked their way completely out of my system, so for a week or so I wanted to punch everybody in the mouth, and the internet has a tendency to drag out the inner-arse portal in all of us, so I apologize if I came off a little ragey to anyone. oops.

But I still stand by what I said, with perhaps a bit less acrimony. Find a safe way to keep society safe from violent criminals, because at this point it doesn't exist and is a big flooping fairy tale.

Goodday.
[/quote]
Watch those anti depressants they can make you worse, much worse! Dito withdrawal can be a literal hell. For clarification I'm not in the slightest bit annoyed at you. How boring it would be if we all thought the same. I hope you are not annoyed at me. I no doubt do get up peoples nose quite often with my persistence. That's why I would never do this other than on a forum. I'm picking up that you have had some dramas in your life and please be assured my thoughts are with you, having been there done that numerous times myself.

On topic. CP seems a clean easy and just way to solve a problem and as I stated that's how I used to see it. But from
[i]cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=1&ch=3&l=18#x"][18][/url] Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;[/i] There's nothing neat and easy about life. In fact I see life as a [i]Kobayashi Maru Test.[/i] I said to someone recently that God doesn't necessarily need us to achieve in making the world a better place since he could easily do that himself. What he wants is to see us keep trying even in the face of constant failure. Peace Sis.

[Ice_nine]

lol my life isn't all that dramatic. I just figured the serotonin balance probably consolidated itself in my brain and I didn't need to keep popping pillz. Other than a few slightly unpleasant withdrawal symptoms all is uneventful. I no longer want to punch everyone in the mouth tho, even if they is really, really dumb for real.

But I'm about done with this conversation anyhow. I'm a fairly recent convert to the idea that allowing for use of the DP doesn't make you some vicious troglodyte, so it's kinda funny that some people may assume that about myself. Turnabout is fair play I suppose

g'day