Death Penalty And Pro Life

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

The australian media at present is also portraying civil unions as marriage, which according to the state they are not, i know this because i was talking to a random political candidate who was in the bus interchange for the upcoming elections. He said that civil union is not marriage persay, it is so the system can recognise them as partners,like at tax time,census time etc. And to top it off which aliviated my pain of my states descision to allow homo sexual marriage which like i said supposedly isn't actually marriage to the government. The media uses the words marriage and it isn't even marriage, it's a civil union according to the state. And this poli told me in no way is any of the government wanting to impose upon the religions of this nation that they have to marry homo-sexuals.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1346366969' post='2476446']
In Oz prisoners are treated better than the poor. A paedophile child sex offender gets a few years in prison. Is then given a comfortable cottage outside the prison walls with orders to report regularly and no go zones. While the poor sleep on the streets awaiting community housing. Inmates can go to school get their lawyers qualifications and take the state to court to try to gain release (Julian Knight) While this situation is a ridiculous extreme and shouldn't be. The other end extreme is bringing the use of solitary confinement into the argument as a reason to execute people. Like I mean doesn't the guy who embezzles his company and gets 5 years subject to tantrums and need time in the slammer. Do you suggest we execute anyone who is likely to warrant solitary by their inherent behavior? In Oz people do and should be allowed schooling to further their education and prospects of rehabilitation. I think that they should also have to work to repay their debt to the state and their victims.
[/quote]

Do you mean Oz the television drama that was on HBO? Because let me tell you, as a dude that built prisons and toured more than I care to remember, that show was way off base.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1346380918' post='2476543']
I don't get it markoftehcross. Why do you say detention centres, that is media jargon.
[/quote]
Well I don't know! You and Jaime may have me at a disadvantage since I don't have first hand knowledge of those places. But those fences and bars in the Christmas Island centre picture and the ones I saw in 'Go back to where you came from.' don't appear as though people are free to come and go. Is my use of the term detention so wrong? The rest of what you say is of course is true and it's a real debacle.
[img]http://images.smh.com.au/2009/12/02/941526/xmasislandcrop-420x0.jpg[/img]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1346384724' post='2476560']
Do you mean Oz the television drama that was on HBO? Because let me tell you, as a dude that built prisons and toured more than I care to remember, that show was way off base.
[/quote]
Do you mean you have experience in Australian prisons? I know you don't like Wiki but
[quote]
Fulham Correctional Centre is a medium security Australian prison located in Hopkins Road, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale,_Victoria"]Sale[/url], [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_%28Australia%29"]Victoria[/url], [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia"]Australia[/url]. The prison consists of mainstream medium security cell blocks, a drug and alcohol treatment unit and a protection unit.
The prison minimum security section hs cottages for four prisoners per cottage (120 can be housed here). The prisoners must be Minimum rated to live in this section, and they must have prison employment. They get a weekly budget for groceries and buy and cook their own food. They have few restrictions and have a phone in each cottage.
Facilities for use by prisoners include [b]soccer grounds, swimming pools, and tennis court.[/b]
[/quote]
Fulham (Near to my home town) at least is not a place I would like to be in but we do get the impression that people there have the possibility of better lives than the people who spend the night on the river bank. And of course it is a medium security prison. So if I'm wrong about the impression that prisons are better than outback or high rise community housing then okay concede your point. What about Julian Knight who is now a lawyer and continually taking the state to court is that false?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1346358421' post='2476386']
Define torture... I'd say solitary confinement is torture. Human beings are social by nature, and to forcibly strip them of this IMO is torture. If solitary confinement can make people go crazy, what is not torturous about that?
[/quote]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1346358421' post='2476386']
Define torture... I'd say solitary confinement is torture. Human beings are social by nature, and to forcibly strip them of this IMO is torture. If solitary confinement can make people go crazy, what is not torturous about that?
[/quote]

your getting very liberal with your idea of torture. when someone says torture it means torture. it means waterboarding, severely beating a pow, cutting and so on. that is torture.

not giving an overweight person food for 2 days can make them go crazy. not giving a drug addict cocaine for 2 days can make them go crazy. not giving an alcoholic a drink for a few days can make them go crazy.

are you really trying to equate solitary confinment as the same as waterboarding, cutting and other torture techniques used by governments to get pow's to talk?

[Anomaly]

Mark and havoc. Do a google search. Are US SuperMax Prisons Humane?

My contention is they are not and are used to house criminals who were not murderers and do not provide any means of rehabilitation and exacerbate issues people had in the first place. People sentenced to life in an institution already received a death penalty because it will likely destroy their mental capacity to contemplate their crime, develop remorse, and ask a God for forgiveness. Who can even come to believe in a god under such extreme duress that slowly and surely dehumanizes the and destroys their psyche?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346448049' post='2476909']
Mark and havoc. Do a google search. Are US SuperMax Prisons Humane?

My contention is they are not and are used to house criminals who were not murderers and do not provide any means of rehabilitation and exacerbate issues people had in the first place. People sentenced to life in an institution already received a death penalty because it will likely destroy their mental capacity to contemplate their crime, develop remorse, and ask a God for forgiveness. Who can even come to believe in a god under such extreme duress that slowly and surely dehumanizes the and destroys their psyche?
[/quote]

i never said they were humane. i said using the word torture to define solitary confinement is a very liberal use of the word.

i also don't agree with the death penalty because way, way to many innocent men are killed. people we find out later who were innocent. heck just look how many innocent men are in jail.

also i will contend that america has the capabilities to have a humane prison system. they don't now. although its due to lack of trying and not lack of ability. i am not ok with using the dp when this country is more than capable of putting in place a humane prison system that keeps society safe but instead chooses to use the same broken system instead of fixing the problem.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346448049' post='2476909']
Mark and havoc. Do a google search. Are US SuperMax Prisons Humane?

My contention is they are not and are used to house criminals who were not murderers and do not provide any means of rehabilitation and exacerbate issues people had in the first place. People sentenced to life in an institution already received a death penalty because it will likely destroy their mental capacity to contemplate their crime, develop remorse, and ask a God for forgiveness. Who can even come to believe in a god under such extreme duress that slowly and surely dehumanizes the and destroys their psyche?
[/quote]
I would imagine that super max prisons are very inhumane. I did a search and there are claims that Australian max prisons are inhumane. What I'm saying is that I don't think that is a reason for the death penalty. I've never been in an Australian immigration processing centre as my good friend 'Tab' prefers I call them. But from the videos on TV and the complaints of people there, including security staff, I get the impression that it is inhumane to keep people including children locked in them not knowing if and when they will get out. Or if after all they've been through they will be returned to Afghanistan to disappear and never be heard of again. There was a video depicting a group of young detainee males apparently being beaten by security staff and crying out like timid frightened children. I can't be sure that that wasn't some media hype, but no doubt it does happen. There's the possibility that what they have been through may make them mentally ill enough that when they are released into the community they may take revenge on our wives and daughters. From the pictures I've seen, an outback aboriginal community is a very inhumane place for people (children) to live under threat of rape, bashing and slavery. I've been to Dili twice and I cry for the children there.
However I think I mentioned on the last thread where this subject came up that I could see your point. In crowded third world countries the only and humane solution could be the death penalty. My wife is from the Philippines, so I have some first hand knowledge. My wife says that if your car breaks down on the freeway don't get out. The police may assume you are a car hijacker and shoot you first and then check why you were there later. They have no resources to deal with a large criminal uptake. When the prison gets a bit crowded they accidentally leave the gate open and when the prisoners make a break for it they open fire. The US (Australia too) of course does have both developed and third world living standards, so you may well be correct that the only solution is humane execution. But how does that work? Someone who has been put away for a long time for armed robbery has to kill another inmate so he can get the more humane death penalty? Or do we execute everyone worthy of a supermax sentence? I'm seriously interested in your take on that since you obviously have some in depth knowledge. What I've been maintaining is that ideally we should be aiming for improving prison standards for the possibility of rehab. I know that the chances of a cold killer turning to God is pretty remote, however as Christians we are not given to make that judgement. Same issues as for euthanasia.

[Ice_nine]

Ok . . .

sigh nevermind.

goodnight

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1346559943' post='2477494']
Ok . . .

sigh nevermind.

goodnight
[/quote]
I was expecting to get a blast after my post to you, (loling) since rereading I wondered if I misunderstood you. Sorry if I did! Now you've left me wondering what you were going to say. Feel free to bash me up anytime you want, everybody else does.

[Ice_nine]

Mark, I just wasn't crazy about the insinuation that, because I'm against placing people in institutions that literally drive people batshit crazy, that it's somehow akin to wanting to kill of mentally ill/poor/foreign people. I mean, I didn't understand much of the post directed at me, but Im guessing you're making a leap of logic that I'm not making. I'm saying that taking a criminal who has brutalized other human beings, and then placing him in a facility is NOT keeping others in his (or her I guess) proximity safe. So then people may say "well just keep him away from all other people so he can't harm them!" which will most likely drive the man to psychological insanity. In both situations there is harm being inflicted upon the criminal and/or others around him. It is NOT a safe way of containing the criminal methinks. Maybe for us on the "outside" who aren't touched by the violent crime syndacates that are frequently hq'd in supermax prisons. It's not conducive to rehabilitating criminals who perhaps have capacity for remorse, and solitary is not humane nor is it conducive to repentance/actual remorse.

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346438707' post='2476791']
are you really trying to equate solitary confinment as the same as waterboarding, cutting and other torture techniques used by governments to get pow's to talk?
[/quote]

This attitude is grating because it reflects a wider stigma that psychological illnesses are less real/less severe than physical infirmities. No it's not the same, it's of a different class of inhumane behavior, and is sometimes WORSE than physical torture. So yes, I'm comparing solitary confinement and being treated like an animal day in and day out to the physical forms of torture.

Are you aware of the damage you can do to a human being without physically lifting a finger against him?

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346448049' post='2476909']
My contention is they are not and are used to house criminals who were not murderers and do not provide any means of rehabilitation and exacerbate issues people had in the first place. People sentenced to life in an institution already received a death penalty because it will likely destroy their mental capacity to contemplate their crime, develop remorse, and ask a God for forgiveness. Who can even come to believe in a god under such extreme duress that slowly and surely dehumanizes the and destroys their psyche?
[/quote]

amen to all of that.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Ice_nine

[Ice_nine]

edit:double post

Edited September 3, 2012 by Ice_nine

[Ice_nine]

edit: wahh triple post sort of wierd things are happening

Edited September 3, 2012 by Ice_nine

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1346685235' post='2477864']
Mark, I just wasn't crazy about the insinuation that, because I'm against placing people in institutions that literally drive people batshit crazy, that it's somehow akin to wanting to kill of mentally ill/poor/foreign people.
[/quote]
I'm a little frustrated that you got that out of what I wrote. I didn't realise I was that difficult to understand. It just seemed to me that people here are using the danger to prison staff and to the public as a result of psychological damage to inmates as a justification for DP. Which comes across as a lame reason. I was intending to bring in other examples where the same conditions can occur to demonstrate this. People in refugee camps go batty too and become a danger in exactly the same way as prison inmates. The same for the mentally ill. I wasn't suggesting that you wanted to kill these people. I was just pointing out the comparison that killing is not a solution for them. So to suggest that CP was a solution for criminals doesn't really fly either. On the other thread I was being an idealist and a little naive I suppose, by suggesting that all criminals should be rehabilitated. Anomaly (wish I knew his name I hate calling him that.) Made me realise that I was dreaming and that in my example of the Philippines the only realistic solution is DP in preference to maintaining cells of hell on earth. Does God condone this? I really don't know. Would it be merciful to execute people in African refugee camps instead of watching helplessly as children waste away and their parents become totally batty? The thought once crossed my mind that my wife's actions in supporting her extended family in the Philippines and my work in East Timor is only helping them to increase in population and thus we are really only making things worse in the long run. But then I decided that that is not for me to decide. My task is to show the love of Jesus and feed the hungry etc and leave those things of which I have no control over to God and to those he challenges to address those issues. I think on a previous post I suggested that CP could be validated but as a Christian it is not for me to support that. I must take the idealist view and oppose DP on principle even if it means I'm naive. I hope that makes it a little clearer for you. I think I've know you long enough to know that you are a fine Christian person and I would never suggest that you would have un-Christian view points.

[Ice_nine]

I know you don't think I literally want to kill people, but that my logic could be extended to kill refugees etc. There's a clear difference between a) people going insane by uncontrollable circumstances and b) creating an environment that slowly drives people insane and calling it "a safe environment." The initial problems are different a)the circumstances have driven these people crazy, we should help them b) this person is dangerous we need to contain him.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1346685235' post='2477864']
This attitude is grating because it reflects a wider stigma that psychological illnesses are less real/less severe than physical infirmities. No it's not the same, it's of a different class of inhumane behavior, and is sometimes WORSE than physical torture. So yes, I'm comparing solitary confinement and being treated like an animal day in and day out to the physical forms of torture.

[/quote]

give me solitary confinement for 10 years or give me 10 straight years of terrorist phsyical torture tactics.... yeah, not the same, not even close.

psychological illness is real and a real problem. but to say solitary confinement is one the same level or worse than some real torture techniques just shows your going overboard to prove your point.

so i'll ask... do you think everyone in solitary confinement should be lined up and shot? is that the more humane thing to do? just kill them all and be done with it? heck why stop there. prisons are bad to. how much rape, assaults, killings, abuse goes on in there. we might as well kill all them instead of having them deal with what awaits in prison for them. let's be really humane and just kill everyone in the prison system. according to the arguements, this would be the humane thing to do.