Death Penalty And Pro Life

[havok579257]

[quote name='dudleysharp' timestamp='1345987970' post='2474415']
. The authors of the Catechism appear to have no grasp of reality?

[/quote]

attacking the catechism of our faith will get you no where. the cathescism is right and your wrong, end of story. not trying to sound rude but the fact is the church in matters of faith and morals is always right and anyone who disagrees with her is wrong. the church has been at this for 2000 years. compared to even the longest persons lifetime, it is forever the church has been getting it right.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1346003295' post='2474465']
Charles Manson is up for parole every two or so years. And what about prison escapees or those who are able to communicate with the outside world to direct their criminal activities (such as street gangs)? What about those cases in which prisoners escape?

[/quote]

what your describing is a broken system. the question you need to ask is, is america capable of having a humane prison system in place that can protect soceity or is is "impossible". just because america has not got of its butt and fixed the prison system does not mean they don't have the means to do it. people should not be executed because this country refuses to fix its prison problem when it is more than capable of fixing the problem.

just like people should not be executed when america has yet to fix the fact that throughout their history innocent men have been executed. the simple fact that innocent men have been executed should negate it being used in this country. if this society can not even guarentte innocents will not be killed why would you want to give them the power to execute people? cause the fact is, 10 years from now you yourself could be executed by the government for something someone else did. you an innocent could be executed through absolutly no fault of your own. i am not comfortable of giving the government the power people when it can not guarentte they are guilty.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1346004979' post='2474484']
what your describing is a broken system. the question you need to ask is, is america capable of having a humane prison system in place that can protect soceity or is is "impossible". just because america has not got of its butt and fixed the prison system does not mean they don't have the means to do it. people should not be executed because this country refuses to fix its prison problem when it is more than capable of fixing the problem.

just like people should not be executed when america has yet to fix the fact that throughout their history innocent men have been executed. the simple fact that innocent men have been executed should negate it being used in this country. if this society can not even guarentte innocents will not be killed why would you want to give them the power to execute people? cause the fact is, 10 years from now you yourself could be executed by the government for something someone else did. you an innocent could be executed through absolutly no fault of your own. i am not comfortable of giving the government the power people when it can not guarentte they are guilty.
[/quote]

And any opposition to the death penalty I have comes from the fact that innocent people do end up on death row, not because the soundbites that people use to imply that the death penalty is intrinsically opposed to being pro-life or that guilty people's dignity is equal to (or greater than) the innocent.

Is America capable of fixing what is broken? Unfortunately, the steps to be taken (like sending the dangerous offenders to a deserted island and cutting off all their contact to the outside world) to fix what is broken would probably cause the ACLU to whine about prisoner's rights. And we would have to change our judicial system so that it is more fact-based and less about "lawyer games".

Edited August 26, 2012 by Norseman82

[BG45]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1345741634' post='2472728']
[img]http://troll.me/images/futurama-fry/oh-look-its-that-topic-again-thumb.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
18 props. This may be the most propped post on all of Phatmass.

[Ice_nine]

@Basilla. A possible answer to your objections.

Everyone has the right to life, and no one [i]else[/i] can take them away, but you can rescind [i]your own[/i] rights if you so desire. Sometimes it's noble (e.g. someone renouncing their property rights in a vow of poverty), other times it's not so noble (renouncing my right to life by my own brazen and willful offenses against life). It's not that the DP violates the right to life, because the criminal has essentially waived his rights by his actions.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1346010899' post='2474522']
And any opposition to the death penalty I have comes from the fact that innocent people do end up on death row, not because the soundbites that people use to imply that the death penalty is intrinsically opposed to being pro-life or that guilty people's dignity is equal to (or greater than) the innocent.
[/quote]

I agree that it is a very concerning and very real problem.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1346003295' post='2474465']
According to the Bible, God said that certain people [b]forfeit[/b] their right to life.




Charles Manson is up for parole every two or so years. And what about prison escapees or those who are able to communicate with the outside world to direct their criminal activities (such as street gangs)? What about those cases in which prisoners escape?




[/quote]

What escapes are you talking about? The last maximum security escape that I can find is 2001. Breaking out of a max or supermax is impossible.

[Winchester]

I don't think the idiots presently running our government should have the power of the death penalty.

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1346025740' post='2474574']
What escapes are you talking about? The last maximum security escape that I can find is 2001. Breaking out of a max or supermax is impossible.
[/quote][img]http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Rage-Challenge-Accepted.jpg[/img]

[Amppax]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1346011517' post='2474525']
18 props. This may be the most propped post on all of Phatmass.
[/quote]

Not quite. The most propped (last I checked) was about babies.

See: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/best-content/"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/best-content/[/url]

Edited August 27, 2012 by Amppax

[Papist]

I don't understand. What does banning an university from competing in a sport for at least one year got to do with being pro-life?

[sixpence]

wait! when did dairygirl return???

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1345985387' post='2474405']
Yes, if you really believe a Govenor signing a death warrant is the same as a mother obtaining an abortion, you are invincible. If a fetus is as innocent as a convicted murderer in your eyes, I must bend the knee and concede. You win.
[/quote]
God is absolute love and loves all people. it is sin that separates man/woman from God. God created man for the purpose of salvation and always hopes for the repentance of all humans right up until the moment of death. The parable of the good thief was an example of this. Lucky him he repented before the Romans killed him. If they had killed him earlier he may not have made it. We've had this discussion before and you have some valid points. Killing people is sometimes the only or best option. However where possible all attempts should be made to rehabilitate criminals. We do this to ourselves at confession so should we be excused from attempting it with our neighbors? BM is correct! Human nature makes us feel sympathy for the unborn and revulsion for the child sexual torturer. But God knows all. God sees people as separate to their sins and wishes that they be freed. God knows what could be and has sufficient (Omni?) compassion to want to save the person burdened by heinous sin. If you remove sin from humans, what difference is there in them. They only have what gifts God gives them. Christ takes away the sins of mankind if you want and there is only one sin that cannot be removed. The total rejection and hatred of God right up to death. God loves people in different ways depending on what he challenges them to do and how they respond but God loves all people.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1346108610' post='2475047']
God is absolute love and loves all people. it is sin that separates man/woman from God. God created man for the purpose of salvation and always hopes for the repentance of all humans right up until the moment of death. The parable of the good thief was an example of this. Lucky him he repented before the Romans killed him. If they had killed him earlier he may not have made it. We've had this discussion before and you have some valid points. Killing people is sometimes the only or best option. However where possible all attempts should be made to rehabilitate criminals. We do this to ourselves at confession so should we be excused from attempting it with our neighbors? BM is correct! Human nature makes us feel sympathy for the unborn and revulsion for the child sexual torturer. But God knows all. God sees people as separate to their sins and wishes that they be freed. God knows what could be and has sufficient (Omni?) compassion to want to save the person burdened by heinous sin. If you remove sin from humans, what difference is there in them. They only have what gifts God gives them. Christ takes away the sins of mankind if you want and there is only one sin that cannot be removed. The total rejection and hatred of God right up to death. God loves people in different ways depending on what he challenges them to do and how they respond but God loves all people.
[/quote]Mark,
It's only in Luke that the repentance of the theif is recalled. And you will note, that it is clearly understood the thief accepted the punishment as justly deserved. No mention is made of the other thieves accepting their punishment as being justly deserved.

Obscuring the sense of justice when punishment is dealt with also obsures the value of forgiveness. Where is any sense of mercy or being given a gift of mercy if you the offendor has no sense of deserving the punishment from society for his crimes against society? Nobody is advocating a lynching, execution without trial. The DP in society is invoked for serious and hienouos crimes against the dignity and value of life itself. The murderer took away the opportunity to repent from his victim. The murderer is not being executed immiately, but is going through a trial by society and is instructed that he has earned just punishment for his crime. The murderer is given plenty of time to repent and make his peace with God as his execution surely creeps up. Theologically that is a great gift as Jesus himself gives the parable about the wedding attendents not knowing the arrival of the master and keeping their lamps trimmed and lit. The condemned murder knows his hour and can choose his course of action accordingly.
If you believe in salvation requireing a state of grace, have you no sense of horror at a person being robbed of life and the opportunity to repent by someone with evil intent in their heart taking their life, taking their opportunity to repent, make peace with God. Or is that left to the 'mystery' of God being meted out by a murderer?
It's sad and disturbing that Catholics would equate a Govenor signing an execution order as no different than a man who kills a college kid because they saw him stealiling their GameBox.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1346156570' post='2475279']
Mark,
It's only in Luke that the repentance of the theif is recalled. And you will note, that it is clearly understood the thief accepted the punishment as justly deserved. No mention is made of the other thieves accepting their punishment as being justly deserved.
[/quote]
I doubt very much that the thief was admitting that his punishment was fair and just! I think all rational humans would consider that method of capitol punishment abhorrent and evil. The thief was merely making a point that his punishment was the norm for his crimes whether just or not and that Jesus punishment was not, since he had not committed any of the crimes that attracted the barbaric act of crucifixion in Roman law. No one in their right mind would admit to deserving crucifixion.

[quote]Obscuring the sense of justice when punishment is dealt with also obsures the value of forgiveness. Where is any sense of mercy or being given a gift of mercy if you the offendor has no sense of deserving the punishment from society for his crimes against society? Nobody is advocating a lynching, execution without trial. The DP in society is invoked for serious and hienouos crimes against the dignity and value of life itself. [/quote]
So you feel that life in prison to ponder your punishment does not qualify? How do you teach a person anything by killing them?

[quote] The murderer took away the opportunity to repent from his victim.[/quote]
No offense intended but this does place one in a position of thinking that they know the mind of God. How do you know that the victim did not earn a get out of jail free card because of his lack of opportunity? You might say that a criminal being executed can also be given extra allowance by God because of their shortened life and possibly do in some cases. But that does not justify execution just as it is not justifiable to murder an innocent person on the theory that it will give them an early pass to heaven.
The question has often entered my mind how is fairness achieved when some people have short easy lives and others have long hard ones. No doubt religions that believe in reincarnation propose this as a solution. They propose that a soul is reborn until they achieve a desired level of saintliness. However in Christianity we believe once is enough whether it be long, short, hard, easy. I don't know how that works.

[quote] The murderer is not being executed immiately, but is going through a trial by society and is instructed that he has earned just punishment for his crime. The murderer is given plenty of time to repent and make his peace with God as his execution surely creeps up. Theologically that is a great gift as Jesus himself gives the parable about the wedding attendents not knowing the arrival of the master and keeping their lamps trimmed and lit. The condemned murder knows his hour and can choose his course of action accordingly.[/quote]
That sounds very nice, but finding God is not that easy. I believed in God as far back as I can remember but I have wandered in the wilderness for more years than I have walked with him and in that time have undoubtedly been in a state outside of grace. How about yourself, if given 90 days to live could you sort your doubts and come to true repentance for murdering someone? And the more time I question you the more your cannot give a definitive answer. in otherwords if I ask you will you be an atheist tomorrow you can say with reasonable assurity yes! But how about in 20 years can you still be just as sure? Many atheists consider that theists are just looking for a soft cushy way of living, but in truth being a Christian is extremely hard. The devil works at us relentlessly. Most of the time I get the sense of all my efforts seemingly to fail and that I can't go on. Going back 40 years if I had been given a few months or even a few years to make my peace with God could I achieve what has taken 40 years?

[quote]
If you believe in salvation requireing a state of grace, have you no sense of horror at a person being robbed of life and the opportunity to repent by someone with evil intent in their heart taking their life, taking their opportunity to repent, make peace with God. Or is that left to the 'mystery' of God being meted out by a murderer?[/quote]
I have a sense of horror at lots of atrocities especially the sexual torture of children but revenge is never justified.
I don't believe that sainthood is a requirement for salvation if it is most of us are in deep poo. God gives each person talents opportunities and challenges and looks into the heart for salvation. How can a child living on a rubbish dump in Manila achieve a state of grace comparable to saint whoever? If a persons life is cut short by a murderer I can only trust that God has allowed this because that person has already been saved or hopelessly lost. God could not be just and merciful otherwise.
[quote]
It's sad and disturbing that Catholics would equate a Govenor signing an execution order as no different than a man who kills a college kid because they saw him stealiling their GameBox.[/quote]
Well if I implied that, then it was a miscommunication. The governor is obviously doing what he thinks is his duty. Not having ever sent someone to their death I wouldn't know whether the governor feels he has executed justice or committed some sin. I suppose it would vary from case to case. What I was stating was as I have said before killing is necessary and justifiable in many cases but I don't think it is the ideal. God loves all people and as a Christian he commands that I love him and my neighbor. If my neighbor tries to kill my family and I kill him in defense then I don't feel that I have failed to love him. But if I call for the death penalty of someone who has been imprisoned and rendered unable to commit a crime then how is that showing love when I should be calling for a better penal system in the hope of rehabilitation.
There's a lot of controversy here in Australia with 'refugee' problems. I feel anger at people who I see are better off than people that I saw in East Timor who are not satisfied just to get out of their country to a place like Indonesia or Nauru, but want to keep coming to Australia because of our much better standard of living. I even took it to confession for the reason that if I was a government minister for immigration then I should consider the very valid points of over crowding and swamping our social security system and job opportunity and the resultant down grading of living conditions for the future generations. But since I am not in any position of power then my duty as a Christian is to pray and call for compassion. Likewise if I were a governor or judge in a country with CP then I would have to face the unenviable debacle of whether or not to send people to their death. But as a Christian in a non CP country it is my duty to oppose it for the reason that it is not my place to play act God.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1346198894' post='2475475']
I doubt very much that the thief was admitting that his punishment was fair and just!
[/quote]


Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.”
40
The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation?
41
And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”