The Gay Debate: The Bible And Homosexuality

[dUSt]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345820242' post='2473474']
I would say it matters because our society is becomming more disordered. Every civilization recognized the vital importance of conforming to Dharma / Tao / Nature, to do otherwise is to ultimately self destruct. Every inch of our Christian civilization that we give up, we sink further down.
[/quote]
Wouldn't we be better off then, focusing on the breakdown of the family, rather than focusing on gay marriage? Having children out of wedlock is way more detrimental to society than gay marriage. Why do we never hear about campaigns to fight the problems facing single mothers, or divorces? It seems the focus is wrong.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345819387' post='2473465']
Actually the sins of fornication and sodomy (to use old school terms) are not equal. The latter is classified as an unnatural sin of impurity while the former is a natural sin of impurity. Since sodomy is a corruption of sex by using it contrary to its natural purpose it is considered an attack on nature and therefore an attack on the Author of Nature. It is therefore considered a more grievous sin than fornication.
[/quote]Silliness, really.
As far as I'm concerned, it's silliness really. The Catholic Church teaches both could be Mortal Sins and could send you to hell, but one is worse than the other? It seems to matter little that they're different since the end result is the same. This is why the obvious hypocrasy and stereotyping of people is labeled as such by those outside the Church and many within.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Anomaly

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1345822455' post='2473487']
Silliness, really.
As far as I'm concerned, it's silliness really. The Catholic Church teaches both could be Mortal Sins and could send you to hell, but one is worse than the other? It seems to matter little that they're different since the end result is the same. This is why the obvious hypocrasy and stereotyping of people is labeled as such by those outside the Church and many within.
[/quote]

The spiritual pains of hell are equal to all, but the physical pains vary by the severity of one's moral sins.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1345819097' post='2473461']
Catholics don't re-interpret the Scriptures to get it to say what they want, so its not a debate.
[/quote]

False.

One of my favorite verses is Acts 20:28: "Therefore, brethren, do whatever thou dost like, for God doth not care if you clearly do not respect him and his laws." That one always inspires me.

[Tally Marx]

This speech does not address any of the theology behind the Catholic Church's teaching on homosexuality and homosexual "sex". It might be well and fine for a Sola Scriptura Methodist, but not for a Catholic and not for the Church.

I agree with dUST that we should not be single-issue Catholics. However, I do think SSM is an important issue. It misunderstands and propagates a fundamental misunderstanding of what marriage is. This understanding is going to affect marriage in our society (which, whether you like it or not, you are a part of and have a responsibility to as a Catholic). I[i] would [/i]say we need to stop trying to teach others what marriage is *[b]not[/b]*. They don't even know what marriage[b] is [/b]anymore. They forgot that back in the thirties when they started using birth control.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1345825684' post='2473519']
I agree with dUST that we should not be single-issue Catholics. However, I do think SSM is an important issue. It misunderstands and propagates a fundamental misunderstanding of what marriage is. This understanding is going to affect marriage in our society (which, whether you like it or not, you are a part of and have a responsibility to as a Catholic).
[/quote]
Yeah, I see your point. I guess I have already given up on "government issued" marriages because they have already strayed so far from my understanding of a sacramental marriage. I figure, whatever--let the government define their version, and we as Catholics strengthen and defend our sacrament--distancing ourselves as much as we can from the government issued version. I suppose I view trying to defend and influence the government's definition of marriage is a losing battle.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1345827358' post='2473540']
I suppose I view trying to defend and influence the government's definition of marriage is a losing battle.
[/quote]Quitter.
On a sociological perspective, people should be able to discuss and argue on a philosophical and scientific level to come up with what may be better for society in the long term. Arguing from the aspect that God says so, isn't going to hold up very long. If there is a 'natural law' of what is better, or ideal, that can be addressed and discussed despite theological bias.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1345819571' post='2473468']
Someone tell me I'm a bad Catholic for placing little importance on any issue related to gayness.

I don't understand why some Catholics/Christians talk about the gay marriage issue in the same breath as the abortion issue. In my mind, they are not even close. Should we blame the media? Our bishops? Politics?

Does this annoy anyone else or just me?

To me gay marriage is an immoral act, but so is divorce, and so is infidelity, and so is sex before marriage. All of these things are sins, but why do we only here about gay marriage when people talk about "the church's issues"? I don't get it.
[/quote]
It's not my place to tell you whether you're personally a "bad Catholic," but your thinking on this issue is definitely not in line with that of the Church.

The Church certainly has never problem talking about abortion (and other sins of murder) in the same breath as sins of sodomy, as they are both grave sins meriting damnation. In fact, the Church considers both murder and sodomy among the five "Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengeance." When any grave sin is being widely and actively promoted culturally and politically, it is the [i]duty[/i] of the Church and Catholics to speak out against it publicly.

So yes, you can blame our bishops, as well as the Pope, 2000 years of consistent Catholic Apostolic teaching, and, while you're at it, God Himself (as, you know, He was responsible for that whole, highly insensitive Sodom and Gomorrah incident).

No, homosexuality is not the only serious sin out there, nor is it the single worst sin, but that does not excuse failure to speak out defending Church teaching on it when it is attacked; much less does it justify criticizing your fellow Catholics for doing so.

This thread was started by a non-Catholic posting a link to a vid attacking Church teaching on this topic. If you want to get upset at someone, maybe it should be with those attacking the teaching, rather than those Catholics defending Church moral teaching.

If Catholics defending the moral teachings of their Faith on this issue annoys and upsets you so much, perhaps you should avoid threads on this topic, rather than posting your annoyance at Catholics for, well, teaching Catholicism.

This happens to be an issue that unfortunately has become heavily politicized, and attacks on Christian moral teaching are rampant, even from many so-called "Christians" and "Catholics."

[quote]Who cares if people are gay or they get a civil marriage or union. It has nothing to do with the church and the sacrament.[/quote]
Well, for one, our current Holy Father, when he was in the office of Prefect of the Congregation for the Defense of the Faith, cared enough to write and publish [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html"]this document[/url] condemning all legal recognition of "civil unions" and "marriages" for homosexuals, condemning all political support for such "civil unions" by Catholics as "gravely immoral." I suggest you read it, and take it to heart.
And he has continued to preach about this issue in the office of the Vicar of Christ.

But who cares what he has to say about it? He obviously doesn't possess such an exalted position of authority in the Church as the webmaster of Phatmass.

If you feel compelled to continue to promote these ideas that are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church, perhaps you should either slap a "Phishy" label on yourself, or else reconsider the alleged mission of Phatmass to "Preach Holy Apostolic Truth."

Edited August 25, 2012 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1345820570' post='2473482']
Wouldn't we be better off then, focusing on the breakdown of the family, rather than focusing on gay marriage? Having children out of wedlock is way more detrimental to society than gay marriage. Why do we never hear about campaigns to fight the problems facing single mothers, or divorces? It seems the focus is wrong.
[/quote]
Perhaps your time would be much better spent starting a thread about the breakdown of the family and out-of-wedlock sex and births, rather than posting in a "gay" thread, and bashing Catholics for defending Catholic teaching in it.

Campaigns to fight the problems for single mothers, etc., exist, but they tend not to be the focus of those wishing to attack Catholic moral teaching.

It is your negative focus on Catholics who defend moral teaching when it is attacked that is wrong.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1345827358' post='2473540']
Yeah, I see your point. I guess I have already given up on "government issued" marriages because they have already strayed so far from my understanding of a sacramental marriage. I figure, whatever--let the government define their version, and we as Catholics strengthen and defend our sacrament--distancing ourselves as much as we can from the government issued version. I suppose I view trying to defend and influence the government's definition of marriage is a losing battle.
[/quote]
By that logic, we should also quit the pro-life effort because the government is doing little to protect the lives of the unborn.

The Church calls on us to be a light to the world, and stand up for what is right, whether we figure it is politically popular or not.

Your view is defeatist, as well as opposed to Church teaching.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1345857939' post='2473816']
Perhaps your time would be much better spent starting a thread about the breakdown of the family and out-of-wedlock sex and births, rather than posting in a "gay" thread, and bashing Catholics for defending Catholics teaching in it.

Campaigns to fight the problems for single mothers, etc., exist, but they tend not to be the focus of those wishing to attack Catholic moral teaching.

It is your negative focus on Catholics who defend moral teaching when it is attacked that is wrong.
[/quote]

I don't think he was bashing, just giving a concern.

[4588686]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1345857602' post='2473813']
It's not my place to tell you whether you're personally a "bad Catholic," but your thinking on this issue is definitely not in line with that of the [s]Church[/s] Socrates.[/QUOTE]

Fxd

[QUOTE]The Church certainly has never problem talking about abortion (and other sins of murder) in the same breath as sins of sodomy, as they are both grave sins meriting damnation. In fact, the Church considers both murder and sodomy among the five "Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengeance." When any grave sin is being widely and actively promoted culturally and politically, it is the [i]duty[/i] of the Church and Catholics to speak out against it publicly.[/QUOTE]

I have never once seen you speak with any passion about number 4 or 5 on that list. Hey, what are those again? Oh yeah.


[indent=1]

[b][b][b](4) The cry of the foreigner, the widow and the orphan, [Ex. 20:20-22] and[/b][/b][/b]

[b][b][b](5) Injustice to the wage earner. [Deut. 24:14-5; Jas. 5:4][/b][/b][/b]

Hm. Injustice to the wage earner. It's interesting that you spend so much time on number 1 and 2 and so little time on number 4 and 5. Hey, which sins on that list are the most politically convenient for your party? Hmmmm...what an interesting coincidence[/indent]

[QUOTE]So yes, you can blame our bishops, as well as the Pope, 2000 years of consistent Catholic Apostolic teaching, and, while you're at it, God Himself (as, you know, He was responsible for that whole, highly insensitive Sodom and Gomorrah incident).[/QUOTE]

[mod]--ICP[/mod]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345858248' post='2473821']Ad hominem the essence of cow.
[/quote]

[4588686]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1345858329' post='2473822']I don't like flowers and I've got a big gun. I think large caliber weapons are the most fun to shoot.
[/quote]

[mod]--ICP[/mod]

[r2Dtoo]

"Ad hominem the essence of cow."? Wow, how did Socrates manage did quote one of his posts and put Hasan's name on it?