Good Example To Non-catholic Family

[Aragon]

My younger sister and I share an apartment together and one thing I try to do is set a good Catholic example for her in the hope that it might be a means of grace for her conversion. I don't shove it down her throat or anything, but if she asks me what I've done today I'll mention going to Mass or other Catholic things like that. She has also asked me about Church teaching on sex before. I was hoping that this might do some good.

However, sadly, it seems the opposite is true. Even though we get along (most of the time) she thinks my Catholicism is something strange, weird, and boring. When we do have a sibling spat she'll often bring it up too. So am I doing something wrong? Is this common - for non-Catholic family members to be hostile and critical of a relative's catholicism? I'd rather hoped it would go the opposite way...

[EmilyAnn]

My family have taken to calling all religious people "nuts". So, I get thrown in with the "nuts". They think I take it "too seriously" and that I'm "obsessed".

The way I try and thing of it is that even though they may not be ready to listen to what I'm saying yet, at least they've heard it. It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, but I pray that one day they'll be open to it. So if/when that day comes, they can finally listen to what they've already heard.

[MIKolbe]

Aragon-

I get this too. My wife is not Catholic. Needless to say when I returned to the Church, I was very zealous to convert her. I felt it was my duty to do so; out of love for her and the Church. Unfortunately, my methods concentrated more on smacking her over the head with the truth, than treating her like an actual person, not a math problem I had to solve. I have apologized for this on many occasions, and would like to think I've learned from the events.

When there are fights, she will say, 'Oh my, what a great Catholic you are!!'...and things to this effect. At first, and for a while, this would only cause me to escalate the argument, or I would shut up and hold a grudge for a while.

One fine evening we were having an argument, she said something like that again. I said, "you know what, you're absolutely right. I'm sorry for treating you like that. I will try to do better. will you forgive me?" I didn't just say it to troll her. I meant it. She WAS right. I SHOULDN'T have treated her like that. i WOULD try to do better. i WANTED her forgiveness.

It led to quite a silence. One of those awkward silences. The argument stopped.

Does she still bring stuff like that up? yes. Do I always do the right thing in retort? no, but I try and always need to try harder.

Not sure what insight this will give you...but there you go...

[Basilisa Marie]

In these situations, the best advice I've found is "Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary, use words."

I'm not surprised she thinks Catholicism is strange - heck, I mean, sometimes it totally looks like a puritanical zombie-cannibalism cult. But I think what you've been doing so far is exactly right - not shying away to bring up your Catholic activities in normal conversation like a normal part of like (like the "what did you do today?" thing), and explaining Church teaching when she asks.

(Story time!)

When I was in high school, my best friend was a vocal and serious atheist. She would question my faith all the time (daily, even), and make incredibly reasonable arguments against the existence of God and the futility of trying to find a higher purpose in life. It got to the point where my Mormon friends and I would be on one side of the argument (for God) and she would outsmart all of us. But we prayed for her, and patiently tried to explain our belief. One day she told me that even though we didn't make sense, she envied how happy and content we seemed to be, having faith. Eventually she had an experience of God's presence...while reading and reflecting on the Book of Mormon. While I was happy that she had begun to believe in God, I was rather horrified that she now wanted to be Mormon, and thought I had lost. About a year later I offered her my copy of Mere Christianity, and she began to question her choice of the Mormon church (since she wasn't 18 yet, she hadn't officially joined their church). A year after that I was sponsoring her in RCIA, and she entered the Catholic Church on Easter of our senior year of high school. Four years of Catholic college later she's now a novice with the SSVM sisters.

The reason why I bring all this up is because the biggest lesson I learned from witnessing her conversion was that it is truly NOTHING I can do that will convert someone. [b][i]I[/i][/b] am not the one who converts anyone. The best thing I can possibly do is to do my best to be a fit instrument in the hands of God, and trust in his greater plan. My friend's family members were and some still are hostile to her decision to enter the Church, and horrified that she "threw her life away" to be a sister. It's a pretty common thing. But the best thing you can do is to pray lots, for her and for your own growth in faith, and do your best to educate yourself so you can answer her questions. Saints are great intercessors. St. Monica prayed for decades before her son converted...and then became one of the greatest theologians the Church has ever seen.

[Amppax]

Aragon, I'm going to share a story:

My Dad more than likely doesn't believe in God. He's nominally Catholic (converted when he married my Mom) and will attend Mass with my siblings and me when we visit him. Earlier this summer I was visiting him, and we had several discussions about the whole HHS situation (my Dad is very liberal). It came around to talking about the Eucharist, and he told me that he finds the whole notion fairly unbelievable. Looking back, I didn't handle it well at the time, because I tried to explain it to him, and got frustrated when it seemed I was failing. Currently, I'm mainly working on just loving him, and trying to, like was said earlier, preach without words. Also, the notion of dying to self comes up here. We want to be accepted, to be loved. But Christ says numerous times in the Gospels that we will be persecuted for his sake (ugh, too lazy to look up references). A prayer that might help is the Litany of Humility ([url="http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/humility.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/humility.htm[/url]). This prayer is amesome, it's one of my favorites. It's all about dying to self, and I think really could be a good one to pray in this scenario.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Amppax

[4588686]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1345648444' post='2471965']
In these situations, the best advice I've found is "Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary, use words."

I'm not surprised she thinks Catholicism is strange - heck, I mean, sometimes it totally looks like a puritanical zombie-cannibalism cult. But I think what you've been doing so far is exactly right - not shying away to bring up your Catholic activities in normal conversation like a normal part of like (like the "what did you do today?" thing), and explaining Church teaching when she asks.

(Story time!)

When I was in high school, my best friend was a vocal and serious atheist. She would question my faith all the time (daily, even), and make incredibly reasonable arguments against the existence of God and the futility of trying to find a higher purpose in life. It got to the point where my Mormon friends and I would be on one side of the argument (for God) and she would outsmart all of us. But we prayed for her, and patiently tried to explain our belief. One day she told me that even though we didn't make sense, she envied how happy and content we seemed to be, having faith. Eventually she had an experience of God's presence...while reading and reflecting on the Book of Mormon. While I was happy that she had begun to believe in God, I was rather horrified that she now wanted to be Mormon, and thought I had lost. About a year later I offered her my copy of Mere Christianity, and she began to question her choice of the Mormon church (since she wasn't 18 yet, she hadn't officially joined their church). A year after that I was sponsoring her in RCIA, and she entered the Catholic Church on Easter of our senior year of high school. Four years of Catholic college later she's now a novice with the SSVM sisters.

The reason why I bring all this up is because the biggest lesson I learned from witnessing her conversion was that it is truly NOTHING I can do that will convert someone. [b][i]I[/i][/b] am not the one who converts anyone. The best thing I can possibly do is to do my best to be a fit instrument in the hands of God, and trust in his greater plan. My friend's family members were and some still are hostile to her decision to enter the Church, and horrified that she "threw her life away" to be a sister. It's a pretty common thing. But the best thing you can do is to pray lots, for her and for your own growth in faith, and do your best to educate yourself so you can answer her questions. Saints are great intercessors. St. Monica prayed for decades before her son converted...and then became one of the greatest theologians the Church has ever seen.
[/quote][quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1345648444' post='2471965']
In these situations, the best advice I've found is "Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary, use words."

I'm not surprised she thinks Catholicism is strange - heck, I mean, sometimes it totally looks like a puritanical zombie-cannibalism cult. But I think what you've been doing so far is exactly right - not shying away to bring up your Catholic activities in normal conversation like a normal part of like (like the "what did you do today?" thing), and explaining Church teaching when she asks.

(Story time!)

When I was in high school, my best friend was a vocal and serious atheist. She would question my faith all the time (daily, even), and make incredibly reasonable arguments against the existence of God and the futility of trying to find a higher purpose in life. It got to the point where my Mormon friends and I would be on one side of the argument (for God) and she would outsmart all of us. But we prayed for her, and patiently tried to explain our belief. One day she told me that even though we didn't make sense, she envied how happy and content we seemed to be, having faith. Eventually she had an experience of God's presence...while reading and reflecting on the Book of Mormon. While I was happy that she had begun to believe in God, I was rather horrified that she now wanted to be Mormon, and thought I had lost. About a year later I offered her my copy of Mere Christianity, and she began to question her choice of the Mormon church (since she wasn't 18 yet, she hadn't officially joined their church). A year after that I was sponsoring her in RCIA, and she entered the Catholic Church on Easter of our senior year of high school. Four years of Catholic college later she's now a novice with the SSVM sisters.

The reason why I bring all this up is because the biggest lesson I learned from witnessing her conversion was that it is truly NOTHING I can do that will convert someone. [b][i]I[/i][/b] am not the one who converts anyone. The best thing I can possibly do is to do my best to be a fit instrument in the hands of God, and trust in his greater plan. My friend's family members were and some still are hostile to her decision to enter the Church, and horrified that she "threw her life away" to be a sister. It's a pretty common thing. But the best thing you can do is to pray lots, for her and for your own growth in faith, and do your best to educate yourself so you can answer her questions. Saints are great intercessors. St. Monica prayed for decades before her son converted...and then became one of the greatest theologians the Church has ever seen.
[/quote]

Shouldn't the fact that she was reading the Book of Mormon when she felt the 'presence of God' be some indication of how unreliable that intuitive sense is? I understand experiencing a moment of transcendence reading parts of the Bible or parts of the Qur'an or parts of the Gita et cetera. But the Book of Mormon? It's not even good literature. It's a laughably fraudulent text written in shiitake mushroom faux King James English? I mean, I get that God can reach a lost sheep through imperfect means and there is truth in all religions, and there's no reason that Mormonism is any less false for you all than Islam or Hinduism, but seriously. Done't stories like that give you pause? Even if the theoretical theology of your faith permits it there must be some unease that this supposedly authentic religious experience can exist in relations to such a book. Like doesn't it make you question the authenticity of your own religious experiences? I'm genuinely wondering.

[4588686]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1345648444' post='2471965']
In these situations, the best advice I've found is "Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary, use words."

I'm not surprised she thinks Catholicism is strange - heck, I mean, sometimes it totally looks like a puritanical zombie-cannibalism cult. But I think what you've been doing so far is exactly right - not shying away to bring up your Catholic activities in normal conversation like a normal part of like (like the "what did you do today?" thing), and explaining Church teaching when she asks.

(Story time!)

When I was in high school, my best friend was a vocal and serious atheist. She would question my faith all the time (daily, even), and make incredibly reasonable arguments against the existence of God and the futility of trying to find a higher purpose in life. It got to the point where my Mormon friends and I would be on one side of the argument (for God) and she would outsmart all of us. But we prayed for her, and patiently tried to explain our belief. One day she told me that even though we didn't make sense, she envied how happy and content we seemed to be, having faith. Eventually she had an experience of God's presence...while reading and reflecting on the Book of Mormon. While I was happy that she had begun to believe in God, I was rather horrified that she now wanted to be Mormon, and thought I had lost. About a year later I offered her my copy of Mere Christianity, and she began to question her choice of the Mormon church (since she wasn't 18 yet, she hadn't officially joined their church). A year after that I was sponsoring her in RCIA, and she entered the Catholic Church on Easter of our senior year of high school. Four years of Catholic college later she's now a novice with the SSVM sisters.

The reason why I bring all this up is because the biggest lesson I learned from witnessing her conversion was that it is truly NOTHING I can do that will convert someone. [b][i]I[/i][/b] am not the one who converts anyone. The best thing I can possibly do is to do my best to be a fit instrument in the hands of God, and trust in his greater plan. My friend's family members were and some still are hostile to her decision to enter the Church, and horrified that she "threw her life away" to be a sister. It's a pretty common thing. But the best thing you can do is to pray lots, for her and for your own growth in faith, and do your best to educate yourself so you can answer her questions. Saints are great intercessors. St. Monica prayed for decades before her son converted...and then became one of the greatest theologians the Church has ever seen.
[/quote][quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1345648444' post='2471965']
In these situations, the best advice I've found is "Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary, use words."

I'm not surprised she thinks Catholicism is strange - heck, I mean, sometimes it totally looks like a puritanical zombie-cannibalism cult. But I think what you've been doing so far is exactly right - not shying away to bring up your Catholic activities in normal conversation like a normal part of like (like the "what did you do today?" thing), and explaining Church teaching when she asks.

(Story time!)

When I was in high school, my best friend was a vocal and serious atheist. She would question my faith all the time (daily, even), and make incredibly reasonable arguments against the existence of God and the futility of trying to find a higher purpose in life. It got to the point where my Mormon friends and I would be on one side of the argument (for God) and she would outsmart all of us. But we prayed for her, and patiently tried to explain our belief. One day she told me that even though we didn't make sense, she envied how happy and content we seemed to be, having faith. Eventually she had an experience of God's presence...while reading and reflecting on the Book of Mormon. While I was happy that she had begun to believe in God, I was rather horrified that she now wanted to be Mormon, and thought I had lost. About a year later I offered her my copy of Mere Christianity, and she began to question her choice of the Mormon church (since she wasn't 18 yet, she hadn't officially joined their church). A year after that I was sponsoring her in RCIA, and she entered the Catholic Church on Easter of our senior year of high school. Four years of Catholic college later she's now a novice with the SSVM sisters.

The reason why I bring all this up is because the biggest lesson I learned from witnessing her conversion was that it is truly NOTHING I can do that will convert someone. [b][i]I[/i][/b] am not the one who converts anyone. The best thing I can possibly do is to do my best to be a fit instrument in the hands of God, and trust in his greater plan. My friend's family members were and some still are hostile to her decision to enter the Church, and horrified that she "threw her life away" to be a sister. It's a pretty common thing. But the best thing you can do is to pray lots, for her and for your own growth in faith, and do your best to educate yourself so you can answer her questions. Saints are great intercessors. St. Monica prayed for decades before her son converted...and then became one of the greatest theologians the Church has ever seen.
[/quote]

Shouldn't the fact that she was reading the Book of Mormon when she felt the 'presence of God' be some indication of how unreliable that intuitive sense is? I understand experiencing a moment of transcendence reading parts of the Bible or parts of the Qur'an or parts of the Gita et cetera. But the Book of Mormon? It's not even good literature. It's a laughably fraudulent text written in shiitake mushroom faux King James English? I mean, I get that God can reach a lost sheep through imperfect means and there is truth in all religions, and there's no reason that Mormonism is any less false for you all than Islam or Hinduism, but seriously. Done't stories like that give you pause? Even if the theoretical theology of your faith permits it there must be some unease that this supposedly authentic religious experience can exist in relations to such a book. Like doesn't it make you question the authenticity of your own religious experiences? I'm genuinely wondering.

[cmotherofpirl]

Any experience can be deceiving for any group. You have to test things with time, facts, logical reasoning, and the fruits that it sows.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345651648' post='2471982']
Shouldn't the fact that she was reading the Book of Mormon when she felt the 'presence of God' be some indication of how unreliable that intuitive sense is? I understand experiencing a moment of transcendence reading parts of the Bible or parts of the Qur'an or parts of the Gita et cetera. But the Book of Mormon? It's not even good literature. It's a laughably fraudulent text written in shiitake mushroom faux King James English? I mean, I get that God can reach a lost sheep through imperfect means and there is truth in all religions, and there's no reason that Mormonism is any less false for you all than Islam or Hinduism, but seriously. Done't stories like that give you pause? Even if the theoretical theology of your faith permits it there must be some unease that this supposedly authentic religious experience can exist in relations to such a book. Like doesn't it make you question the authenticity of your own religious experiences? I'm genuinely wondering.
[/quote]

Well, the way she described it to me...she read parts of it, and then prayed to God asking him to reveal whether or not it's true (which is what you're supposed to do, according to the Mormons). After she joined the Church, she took the experience to mean not that the Book of Mormon was actually true, but that God existed. Which, really, it's a much bigger jump between atheism and theism than from LDS/Mormons to Catholicism. And you can bet your socks it made me question my own religious experiences at the time. But later on, after I'd prayed about it a LOT, I came to realize that God's perfectly capable of using whatever he wants to show himself to us. I was raised in a Catholic/Lutheran household, so I was already "primed" to believe that there are plenty of good things and people outside the Catholic Church. Sure, I believe the Catholic Church contains the fullness of God's grace and divine revelation. But I don't believe that God is confined to using Catholics and Catholicism (or even Christianity, for that matter) to call people into a relationship with him.

And honestly...yes, you're right. I do believe that there is authentic religious experience outside the Catholic Church, and it does give me great pause, because we HAVE to take those experiences seriously if I'm going to take my own seriously. I don't quite understand why God doesn't just use Christianity, or better, Catholicism to bring people into relationship with Him. Maybe it's because the Church is full of rather cruddy and sinful people, and our own actions get in the way, so much so that there are plenty of non-Christians that are more in a state of grace than we are. Maybe not. But what I do know is that I am an incredibly finite being living in an incredibly short existence with an incredibly relative perspective, and if I truly believe that God is all knowing and all powerful, I have to have enough humility to realize that I don't see the whole picture. I know that has to sound like the biggest cop out ever. But that's partly why I know all I can do is be the best Catholic that I can be, because if I do that God will be better able to use me as he sees fit, regardless if it looks to me like I'm converting anyone or whatnot.

[Not The Philosopher]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345651648' post='2471982']
Shouldn't the fact that she was reading the Book of Mormon when she felt the 'presence of God' be some indication of how unreliable that intuitive sense is? I understand experiencing a moment of transcendence reading parts of the Bible or parts of the Qur'an or parts of the Gita et cetera. But the Book of Mormon? It's not even good literature. It's a laughably fraudulent text written in shiitake mushroom faux King James English? I mean, I get that God can reach a lost sheep through imperfect means and there is truth in all religions, and there's no reason that Mormonism is any less false for you all than Islam or Hinduism, but seriously. Done't stories like that give you pause? Even if the theoretical theology of your faith permits it there must be some unease that this supposedly authentic religious experience can exist in relations to such a book. Like doesn't it make you question the authenticity of your own religious experiences? I'm genuinely wondering.
[/quote]

To take things out of religion for a moment, there are movies, books etc. which I enjoyed while I was younger which are, objectively speaking, not good. And some of that enjoyment was no doubt due to my undeveloped taste. But at the same time, an inferior work can make an impression on a person because of the way a certain image, idea, whatever, happens to strike him in just 'that way', and can introduce him to something genuinely good. A description of a scene in a bad war book might suggest to someone for the first time a certain mood or atmosphere which winds up finding its realization in the Iliad. And looking back at it from that perspective, the bad book would be nothing special in and of itself - what he was looking for was really found somewhere else. But until that moment he didn't even know that he could look for it.

[Nihil Obstat]

At this point, with my life situation being the way it is, the only possible chance I have to bring my family back to the Church is simply to live the Faith. Speak when spoken to about it, but mostly not say anything and simply live as best I can.
It is very frustrating, as I am sure you know. But at the same time, at the end of the day it is only God who can change hearts, and only if the other person is willing, so I do not really have much part in it anyway.