I Want To Abuse Women...apparently :(

[Ice_nine]

and pio, I know it smells of elderberries to be accused of such terrible things. Even as a woman it's been more or less insinuated that I'm under some sort of spell that's stifling my self-discovery or emancipation or some the essence of cow like that. Of course it's not been said that I hate women or want to oppress them, which I can imagine doesn't feel all that great. As a generally compassionate person, or someone who tries to be, accusations of bigotry (particularly when dealing with homosexual marriage and such) are particularly hurtful, especially because I feel I can relate to the painful experiences of identity-crisis and all of that.

But I digress . . . My only advice to you is to practice compassion to those who find themselves in crisis pregnancies if the opportunity is ever presented to you, pray for the women who find themselves in these situations, respect women in general (I know it's always fun to make the aptly-timed "go make me a sammich" joke, but repeated micro-aggressions, even in good humor, can precipitate negative effects on the self-esteem of women).

In other words, be kind to those who are in the situations that are being debated if and when you come across them. Sometimes a shouting match is only dealing with abstractions, and while there's no sure-fired way to make people stfu and see the error of their ways, they're not really the problem. In fact I think these debates can sometimes become a distraction. It probably won't help stem the allegations of chauvinism when these conversations arise, but by your Christlike conduct towards others, you will be blameless, and there words will be nothing more than petty slander. A wrong which you will have to bear patiently I guess.

Hope that at least helps somewhat!

[4588686]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1345608738' post='2471779']
I am very glad you posted. I knew you would be prompted to respond. I would have been disappointed had you not replied. I still stand by what I said, but I would have been disappointed had you not replied all the same.

But in actually replying to your post, how about you take a crack at looking at the world through the others' eyes? I have no doubt it is hard to be a woman in this day and age, when women are ogled and turned into sexual play things. But the [i]same things [/i]are starting to happen to men. Do you know what it is like to know that everybody assumes that since you are a guy all you are after is meeting a girl and having sex? I'm not some animal that listens to his instincts. I am an intelligent, thinking, loving human being who is capable of self-control and in fact has no interest in dating or sex whatsoever. But what is more frustrating is when you tell people these things and they don't believe you, and when they laugh and think it is a joke, and will not listen to you even after you try to explain further. It's not easy being a guy either. I agree that I should look more into this, especially since I love this type of thing, but I do think you are a little biased. Women have been discriminated against for much longer, but that doesn't mean anything. Discrimination is wrong no matter who has been discriminated against the longest.
[/quote]


Reading this made my uterus hurt.

[PadrePioOfPietrelcino]

Thank Brother Adam and Ice_nine I know it's a minor insult I faced, but it's nice to know that at least here people understand. BTW even tho we all recognize the "your a man so you have no idea" argument is hooky is there any way to respond other than take it on the chin? If you stay silent this accomplishes what they want if you respond then it just blowing air... catch 22

[jazzytakara]

The world seems to practice a lot of reverse discrimination these days. "x group" wasn't discriminated in the past the way "y group was" thus they have no reasons to complain that it happens to them now, they also have no say. This isn't a good way to look at the situation. Discrimination is discrimination and it changes over time. We should make amends for the pain inflicted in the past on marginalized groups, but we should also work to not inflict the same or similar on another group. I once went to a conference where a female speaker spoke about her former porn addiction and how many men claim that women don't deal with lust, and they couldn't understand her ministry. At no point did she rebuttle with 'men don't know anything as they aren't female' instead she would explain that although women deal with lust differently than men, it is an increasing problem with many young women today. She would also point out in her lectures about how women objectify men daily without realizing it and gave advise on how to treat men and women equally and as brothers and sisters in Christ. How the way a women can dress can impact a man to fall to temptation and how when we oggle a man for his looks and stop thinking of them as a person, we're treating them as an object. Men can be treated unfairly and discriminated against, just because that wasn't the case in the past, doesn't mean that it isn't the case now.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='PadrePioOfPietrelcino' timestamp='1345609440' post='2471795']
Thank Brother Adam and Ice_nine I know it's a minor insult I faced, but it's nice to know that at least here people understand. BTW even tho we all recognize the "your a man so you have no idea" argument is hooky is there any way to respond other than take it on the chin? If you stay silent this accomplishes what they want if you respond then it just blowing air... catch 22
[/quote]

Men don't breastfeed, can they be concerned about a womans right to breastfeed without intimidation?

Men don't get ovarian cancer, can they be concerned about curing this womens problem?

Men are fathers, they have a right to be concerned to be concerned about their children.

The idea that men cannot be concerned about women is totally absurd.

[Ed Normile]

My dad used to say two wrongs don't make a right. A woman who has been subject to the abuse of either rape or incest has been traumatized in a way not common to men, and even one such case is way too many. That said, how can the killing of a child either heal or help the woman, everyone has heard or maybe can even quote examples of women who have been traumatized by aborting a child, emotionally as well as physically. The pregnancy due to rape or incest is a common debate tactic used by the pro-death crowd, and it culls the spiritually weak to their viewpoint, political correctness is a tool of the deceiver. The death penalty given to a innocent creation of God no matter how that child was conceived is reprehensible, it disallows for the gift of life given through the Holy Spirit. Do we enforce the justice upon the child of a murderer. Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

There are statistics that say that cases such as rape and incest have a very low rate of conception incurred I have seen 3% - 5%, this is not to say it does not happen but rather that this argument is an overblown tactic to further the culture of death and its agenda. Is it easier for a woman to heal from the trauma of rape/incest than it is for that same woman to heal from trauma of murdering the life within her, this is something I will never know.

ed

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1345608738' post='2471779']
But in actually replying to your post, how about you take a crack at looking at the world through the others' eyes?
[/quote]

I don't have the material with me handy write now, but there was a scholar (might have been du bois, but perhaps someone else) that proposed the idea that the slave (or any oppressed group) needs to understand the world of his (master) oppressor in order to simply survive. The master does not necessarily NEED to understand the world of his slave since he can easily impose his will through sheer force.

As a woman, I know that this is esentially a man's world, and that I'm just living in it. I have to understand the "man's world" in order to simply navigate and survive (which may be a dramatic word-choice, but deal). You as a man don't really NEED to understand women all that well because IN GENERAL women are typically the dominated party.

In the same way I, as a white person, don't NEED to understand the world of racial minorities in order to go about my business. How "the other side lives" doesn't have much of a practical effect on my daily life. Therefore it would take substantially more effort on my part to understand African-American culture than for an African-American to understand White culture (because it's simply the norm of the world in which we inhabit).

tl;dr? I understand the "man's world" by virtue of necessity. I've looked through their eyes because their eyes are the default. Much of what we learn as young girls about ourselves is in relation to men or how men view us. It takes a conscious effort however, on the more powerful parties to look through the eyes of "the other," and you've not convinced me that you've made that effort.


[quote]
Discrimination is wrong no matter who has been discriminated against the longest.

[/quote]

When you say things like this, it makes me feel like you missed my entire point. And while it's not true to UNJUSTLY discriminate against any party, can you understand that perhaps some of this "reverse discrimination" is a human reaction to being poo upon consistently and repeatedly?

[Ice_nine]

Edit: I mean not FAIR to unjustly discriminate, not true.

And Pio, as far as your last question, other than "taking it on the chin," perhaps abstain from these discussions more? It's hard if you're like me, who spends most of her time on the internet learning/dialoguing/debating and all that jazz, to accept the sad inevitability that most of these debates, whether virtual or totes irl, are going to be entirely fruitless. I fully understand the compulsion to make sure that you are standing up for the truth, and that you're doing the best to convince others of the One truth. However, I've come to the sobering realization that this is not going to happen 95% of the time regardless of the energy I put into it.

It's not a problem with the mind, the abstract theories. It's people having egos and believing whatever they want to believe and justifying it. And if it's reduced to that (which it often is) the only way of escaping the cartesian anxiety embedded in these imbroglios is to simply live your faith instaed of just talking about it. This may sound corny, but perhaps the only real way of convincing most others of moral truths.

[beatitude]

FuturePriest, ice_nine is right. I winced a bit when I read your initial post, especially when I came to the part about men 'not having a say' in abortion. Throughout US history, and continuing to the present day, the majority of senators and people in congress have been male. The president has always been a man. Tell a woman who supports abortion rights that you aren't getting a say, and she will (rightly) point out that healthcare laws and abortion legislation have been drafted by men and debated by men. The US political scene is full of men who aren't afraid to speak out against abortion, and they have a very public platform from which to do it. They are not being discriminated against.

And there are problems here. I am pro-life to the hilt, believing that care for a society's most vulnerable people is a mark of its overall quality and worth. You don't get much more vulnerable than an unborn child. But just because the pro-life cause is right doesn't mean that all arguments in favour of the pro-life cause are right. You can argue for the right thing...but with the wrong reasons. With bad reasons.

This has happened recently in the abortion debate, when Akin announced that in cases of 'legitimate rape' (I won't even ask what he thinks an 'illegitimate rape' looks like) the female body has ways of preventing pregnancy. Abortion in case of rape is therefore a redundant debate, because pregnancy won't happen if the rape is 'real'. This is horrifying. Think what that says to rape victims who became pregnant because of rape: your ordeal probably wasn't real, or you wouldn't have got pregnant. You must have wanted it on some level. Think what it says to women who are now pregnant as a result of rape and wondering desperately what to do. Akin has a political platform to speak from that they don't have, and he has used it to hurt them. This is the kind of thing that women are thinking of when they tell men to butt out of their business. They aren't discriminating against you.

An actual pro-life argument would have involved him accepting the facts - pregnancy as a result of rape happens - and then honestly and compassionately outlining what could be done to help women who find themselves in that situation, and their babies. Showing willingness to help. If more pro-life men did that, instead of ignoring very real issues that pregnant women face, they might find that women are happier to consider their views. But so long as it is common for men to advance weak and even dangerous arguments in favour of the pro-life cause, this will not happen and we can't expect it to happen.

[cmotherofpirl]

"This has happened recently in the abortion debate, when Akin announced that in cases of 'legitimate rape' (I won't even ask what he thinks an 'illegitimate rape' looks like) the female body has ways of preventing pregnancy."


I was actually taught this in a class, and he probably heard it somewhere along the line in the same manner, so while he is mistaken in his facts, he was not being malicious, just outdated.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1345610232' post='2471801']

And while it's not true to UNJUSTLY discriminate against any party, can you understand that perhaps some of this "reverse discrimination" is a human reaction to being poo upon consistently and repeatedly?
[/quote]

Yes, it's understandable that it happens, but that doesn't make it right.

I've read and re-read his posts and he appears to understand that women have suffered and still are suffering, but he also says that men can be discriminated against too.

With all due respect, saying that women have suffered for far longer than men in regards to discrimination, therefore men shouldn't complain appears to be minimizing what they are going through. Abuse is wrong no matter how long it's for.

I also fail to see how this is still a man's world. In some parts of the world I can see it and there are some parts of this country where it can certainly be found, but I also see a lot of women domineering men, and in other circumstances mutual respect. In the U.S. it is seen as completely normal for both sexes to go to college. (And yes I know that it doesn't happen exactly like that according to statistics, but ask your average American and they'll tell you that yea both guys and girls going to college is pretty much expected.) The amount of boys and girls in my tae kwon do class was about equal. My mom didn't have trouble finding jobs as a lawyer and is now one of the managers in one section of the law firm that she works at.

I'm sick of inclusive language and certain (but certainly not all) women want to spell women as "womyn" because they don't want to be connected to men, or in Legally Blonde where one woman is upset over the word "Semester" because it's a male reproductive word (as in seemen,) and wants to petition that it be called "Ovester" because it would be connected to the male reproductive "ovary."

I attended a two year women's college and sometimes would get ticked at what certain peers of mine would say. One of them ranted about how sugar packets and other silly items in the cafeteria were used by men to keep a woman in her place. The blue packet said "Equal" or "Equality," meaning that all men are equal but not women. Meanwhile there was another packet which was pink that said "Sweet and Low," which symbolized how a woman is to be kind and therefore have a low status in society. (Please note that I am not saying that you are like these women and I know that my examples are extreme, but I hope that you get my point.)

I'm going to take a break from this thread or perhaps leave it all together so that I don't say anything that I'll regret. I'm already upset as it is.

[size="3"][color="#000000"] [/color][/size]

[tinytherese]

bump

[MissScripture]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1345647812' post='2471963']
"This has happened recently in the abortion debate, when Akin announced that in cases of 'legitimate rape' (I won't even ask what he thinks an 'illegitimate rape' looks like) the female body has ways of preventing pregnancy."


I was actually taught this in a class, and he probably heard it somewhere along the line in the same manner, so while he is mistaken in his facts, he was not being malicious, just outdated.
[/quote]
I'm younger than you and I remember being taught this, so yeah, misinformed? Yes. Malicious? Not by a long shot.

[Ice_nine]

Look, I don't want to get into a debate, I've dabbled into race/class/gender relations so while I'm no expert I may have a smidgeon more knowledge about this than folk in general. It's a lot more disorganized in my head, but for anyone interested I can dig up some articles when I get the chance.

How does speaking with an unpleasant disposition about fairness do anything? Yeah maybe it's not fair that some swaths of people may view me negatively because I am white. I never killed off the Native Americans, owned slaves, interned the Japanese etc etc, so why peoples gotta hate? But I also recognize that all of the privileges that come with being white isn't fair. No I did not personally ask for these privileges, in fact I may not realize the privileges I have because it's just part of the status quo and therefore taken for granted.

Life isn't fair, sad but true, and it's not fair. You, individually, may not choose to be in the most powerful demographic and you may never demand the privileges associated with that, but as it stands, that's just how things are. Until the powerful can makes a few concessions and stop speaking with an unpleasant disposition about the "discrimination" they face (which again, let me emphasize it's NOT fair or right, but on a wide scale is not close to that faced by underprivileged groups) this merry-go-round will keep on spinning to nowhere. Welcome to group epistemology.