Question For Ex-catholics

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345513316' post='2471010']
I did write that. It was entitled My Fall from Grace or something stupid like that. I actually drunk phatmass much less than people think. I'm just naturally besotted and hilarious.
[/quote]
[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345362216' post='2470065']
It wasn't extreme. Because my initial response was in rebuttal to your claim that the features you listed supported your claim that FDR was a fascist. Your boyish charms won't save you this time. Even if you do somehow make rightism seem intellectually respectable with your thoughtful commentary and wit. You flooping panda. You giant flooping Panda. I like whiskey. Hollaz!
[/quote]
Outted.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345513316' post='2471010']
I did write that. It was entitled My Fall from Grace or something stupid like that. I actually drunk phatmass much less than people think. I'm just naturally besotted and hilarious.
[/quote]I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that all your posts are made after 15-25 shots of Jack Daniels.

[Gabriela]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1345512152' post='2471002']
That's a rather interesting reason. Why would someone leave the Catholic Church just because of "bad Christians". I mean, if you had faith wouldn't you be able to see that the Church isn't these "bad Christians"?
[/quote]

Yes. So I guess the underlying, "real" reason people leave is that they don't have faith.

I hope no one feels like I was slamming people who leave because of bad Catholics. The whole purpose of my admitting that I left Judaism was to indicate that I've done that myself: i.e., judged a religion by its people. (Although, in the case of Judaism, it was slightly more complicated than that.)

I do think that, when someone is first getting really involved in the Church, or any religion for that matter, the people embody that religion for the person. You can sorta' see what a religion teaches, what effects it has on people, by the way adherents to that religion behave. At least, that's the initial approach, I think. Not everyone jumps straight into heavy theology (or [i]ever[/i] jumps into heavy theology, for that matter). And I think we all know this. It is, after all, why we talk about good/bad witness so often.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1345513794' post='2471015']
Yes. So I guess the underlying, "real" reason people leave is that they don't have faith.

I hope no one feels like I was slamming people who leave because of bad Catholics. The whole purpose of my admitting that I left Judaism was to indicate that I've done that myself: i.e., judged a religion by its people. (Although, in the case of Judaism, it was slightly more complicated than that.)

I do think that, when someone is first getting really involved in the Church, or any religion for that matter, the people embody that religion for the person. You can sorta' see what a religion teaches, what effects it has on people, by the way adherents to that religion behave. At least, that's the initial approach, I think. Not everyone jumps straight into heavy theology (or [i]ever[/i] jumps into heavy theology, for that matter). And I think we all know this. It is, after all, why we talk about good/bad witness so often.
[/quote]
Is not faith supposed to be a gift, however?

[Gabriela]

I guess, also, I did once leave Catholicism. I started CCD classes at age 12, because I felt strongly drawn to the Church, but when someone gave me a pro-life bumper sticker to take home with me (I had no idea what it meant at that age), my older brother bashed it, implying that only backwards, ignorant, intolerant people are pro-life. I desperately wanted his approval at that age, so I stopped going.

Possibly those external pressures (/psychological insecurities) cause some other people to leave, too.

[4588686]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1345513645' post='2471012']
Outted.
[/quote]

I don't see how any of that is somehow proof that I was drinking. Winchester does make rightist political philosophy seem respectable, I do like whiskey (Always in moderation!), and Winchester really is a giant flooping Panda.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Hasan

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1345513944' post='2471020']
I guess, also, I did once leave Catholicism. I started CCD classes at age 12, because I felt strongly drawn to the Church, but when someone gave me a pro-life bumper sticker to take home with me (I had no idea what it meant at that age), my older brother bashed it, implying that only backwards, ignorant, intolerant people are pro-life. I desperately wanted his approval at that age, so I stopped going.

Possibly those external pressures (/psychological insecurities) cause some other people to leave, too.
[/quote]
Peer pressure works in very unmysterious ways. Of course you could always argue that that's why some people stay in too.

[Gabriela]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1345513892' post='2471016']
Is not faith supposed to be a gift, however?
[/quote]

Absolutely! I converted to Lutheranism before coming back to the Church, but about a year and a half in, I realized I didn't have the faith I thought I'd had. I just [i]wanted[/i] very badly to believe. When I realized I didn't, I just left. It was only last year that I determined to harass God until He [i]made [/i]me believe. I started harassin', and a few weeks later someone said to me for the first time in my life that, if you want to believe but can't, ask God to give you faith. That's what I'd been doing. And eventually, it worked. :-)

Praise God for His mercy. <3

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345514027' post='2471021']
I don't see how any of that is somehow proof that I was drinking. Winchester does make rightist political philosophy seem respectable, I do like whiskey (Always in moderation!), and Winchester really is a giant flooping Panda.
[/quote]
Bah. I saw what you wrote before your edit. That was funnier actually. Nobody even knows what how Winchester resembles a giant Panda flooping or what that even means.

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1345514115' post='2471024']
Absolutely! I converted to Lutheranism before coming back to the Church, but about a year and a half in, I realized I didn't have the faith I thought I'd had. I just [i]wanted[/i] very badly to believe. When I realized I didn't, I just left. It was only last year that I determined to harass God until He [i]made [/i]me believe. I started harassin', and a few weeks later someone said to me for the first time in my life that, if you want to believe but can't, ask God to give you faith. That's what I'd been doing. And eventually, it worked. :-)

Praise God for His mercy. <3
[/quote]
Well, I would argue that if you mentally train yourself you can accomplish almost any sort of reversal of behavior.

Edited August 21, 2012 by r2Dtoo

[Gabriela]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1345514561' post='2471029']
Well, I would argue that if you mentally train yourself you can accomplish almost any sort of reversal of behavior.
[/quote]

Yep, a lot of people think that. But you can't fake faith. You can deceive yourself, but deep down, you know when it's there and when it's not. Precisely [i]because[/i] it's a gift, you can't "train yourself" to have it. You can only, through your actions and prayers, indicate to God that you are really serious about wanting it. And then, He does His thing.

If you're interested in this phenomenon of "self-training" to experience God, I suggest you read Tanya Luhrmann's new book "When God Talks Back". I'm reading it right now for my thesis, and it's some pretty fascinating stuff. She spent 5 years hanging out with super-evangelicals, asking them about how they experience God. (These are the kind of people who preface comments with, "God told me that...") She's an anthropologist from Stanford. I have to say that, I just finished interviewing 33 Catholic nuns about essentially the same thing, and there are a lot of differences. Catholics do, to some extent, "train themselves" to get in touch with God, but not in the way these evangelicals do. We basically learn how to "open ourselves up", to find silence and internal calm, in order to be able to hear Him speak. Read the book and you'll see how the evangelicals are different.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Egidio' timestamp='1345511659' post='2470996']
Moral theology teaches that the number one reason why people are atheist (or leave the Church) is. . . .BAD CHRISTIANS!
[/quote]

Sheldon Vaunuken (Author of "A Severe Mercy") mentions in the same book, that the strongest argument for Christianity are Christians, yet like most strengths it is also its weakness.


[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1345513794' post='2471015']
Yes. So I guess the underlying, "real" reason people leave is that they don't have faith.

I hope no one feels like I was slamming people who leave because of bad Catholics. The whole purpose of my admitting that I left Judaism was to indicate that I've done that myself: i.e., judged a religion by its people. (Although, in the case of Judaism, it was slightly more complicated than that.)

I do think that, when someone is first getting really involved in the Church, or any religion for that matter, the people embody that religion for the person. You can sorta' see what a religion teaches, what effects it has on people, by the way adherents to that religion behave. At least, that's the initial approach, I think. Not everyone jumps straight into heavy theology (or [i]ever[/i] jumps into heavy theology, for that matter). And I think we all know this. It is, after all, why we talk about good/bad witness so often.
[/quote]

When I think of 'bad' Catholics, I don't necessarily think of Catholics that don't follow the teachings all the way through. I think of the Catholics that are pricks and often pass judgement on those that don't live up to 'their standards' of Catholic teaching or even the ones that tend to love the Law over Love itself. And I think that's what ends up driving most kids/people away from the faith.

[Gabriela]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1345520633' post='2471064']
When I think of 'bad' Catholics, I don't necessarily think of Catholics that don't follow the teachings all the way through. I think of the Catholics that are pricks and often pass judgement on those that don't live up to 'their standards' of Catholic teaching or even the ones that tend to love the Law over Love itself. And I think that's what ends up driving most kids/people away from the faith.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think of them, too! ;-)

Everyone thinking of joining the Catholic Church should get greeted by my sponsor as soon as they walk in the door. That woman is love incarnate.

[God the Father]

cruelty & suffering