The Catholic Church In America: Earthly Concerns

[4588686]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1345507657' post='2470927']
You want me to link to something I did not say. Nice try though.
[/quote]

You said what got the Church into trouble was listening to the advice of pop-psychologists. Nobody is faulting the Church for thinking that child molesters could be cured. Nobody is faulting the Church for recommending therapy for predators. The Church got in trouble for keeping the rape of kids from the authorities, for moving the rapists to other Parishes without any sort of warning, and for attempting to cover up their rather complicity in child rape after the fact. I want to know what pop-psychologists recommended these tactics.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Hasan

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1345510739' post='2470984']


Not only did we "attempt to follow basic morality to protect the innocent children," like you said we should do, but we went above and beyond that. Your statement infers that the Catholic Church is still a dangerous place for children and does not attempt to follow basic morality.
[/quote]I'm much more aware of what was and is going on than you think.
It's not so much the abuse by laity on the parish that's the problem, it's when a higher up, or their supervisor decided to not do the right thing It happened, is happening, and will continue to happen. It's a human foible.

[4588686]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1345511663' post='2470997']
I'm much more aware of what was and is going on than you think.
It's not so much the abuse by laity on the parish that's the problem, it's when a higher up, or their supervisor decided to not do the right thing It happened, is happening, and will continue to happen. It's a human foible.
[/quote]


In an unrelated note, it was really nice of Pope John Paul II to call Cardinal Law to Rome while the investigation was going on. It's interesting that Cardinal Law was the only Priest in the world capable of acting as Archpriest of that Church.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1345496962' post='2470787']
That is what got it into trouble in the first place in the 70s and 80s. The Church followed the pop psychology and what everyone thought was right then. The charter for protecting God's children is light years beyond any other private or public institution. Holiness is exactly what will restore faith in the Catholic Church.
[/quote]

Fair point. Further proof that I'm yet a youngin'.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Basilisa Marie

[Amory]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1345497991' post='2470803']
Interesting. So what do you think; would we have better success if individual parishes were, for accounting and financial purposes more autonomous? Or would that just make things worse?
Honestly, I'm thinking that would be worse still. We'd get far more situations of 'rogue parishes', and the diocese would be less able to respond appropriately.
[/quote]

I actually recall reading about one case of a parish that, due to some financial peculiarity, was not legally owned by the diocese. An appellate court upheld a finding of a lower court that the parish had every legal right to split from the diocese.

Bishops' closing historic parishes is a serious problem, but even more serious would be the series of schisms that would ensue were every parish not owned by the diocese in the person of the bishop.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1345578813' post='2471376']
I actually recall reading about one case of a parish that, due to some financial peculiarity, was not legally owned by the diocese. An appellate court upheld a finding of a lower court that the parish had every legal right to split from the diocese.
[/quote]
I seem to recall reading about the same case.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1345511663' post='2470997']
I'm much more aware of what was and is going on than you think.
It's not so much the abuse by laity on the parish that's the problem, it's when a higher up, or their supervisor decided to not do the right thing It happened, is happening, and will continue to happen. It's a human foible.
[/quote]

Our diocese requires all of our volunteers to follow the mandatory reporting rules of the State of Alaska. That means we're reporting to OCS, State Troopers, or the local police department, not the pastor or chancery.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1345580369' post='2471389']
Our diocese requires all of our volunteers to follow the mandatory reporting rules of the State of Alaska. That means we're reporting to OCS, State Troopers, or the local police department, not the pastor or chancery.
[/quote]In the sexual abuse case, that doesn't solve the problem.
What happens when a family has an issue with a priest or teacher or volunteer, and goes to the Bishop because they don't want to drag their child through a trial, aren't intending to sue, and don't want to cause undo scandal to the Church? The family thinks it should be handled quietly and properly. The problems arose when they were promised by the Bishop (or maybe the pastor when there were more than 1 priest in the parish) that it would be dealt with. Years later, you find out the offendor was moved to another parish (a priest or religous), moved to another ministry, or were just asked not to come around any more. That option may have been due to ignorance or trust in psychology of the day or zeal to protect the reputation of the Church or whatever.
The article is dealing with the financial fallout of subsequent victims suing because what was legally required or reasonably expected was not done. Damages as determined by legal proceedings are due to the victims. Read the article about the muddled finances of the Church because it doesn't have to follow all standard accounting practices. Some practices are shewd hiding the money, other practices are innocent incompetence. The result is retirement funds for religous being raided, parishes who deposited money with the diocese losing it all, and other not so good things.

The Church has been handling massive amount of money for eons. One should expect a certain level of ethical behavior, practices, safeguards, and proper proceedures to perform their duties as good stewards of people's financial sacrifice given the fundamental nature of the Church. The reality is as surprising as it is disappointing. As good as the Church does, it should have a inate ethical culture that would have better standards and avoid the current catastrophic mistakes.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345511498' post='2470993']
You said what got the Church into trouble was listening to the advice of pop-psychologists. Nobody is faulting the Church for thinking that child molesters could be cured. Nobody is faulting the Church for recommending therapy for predators. The Church got in trouble for keeping the rape of kids from the authorities, for moving the rapists to other Parishes without any sort of warning, and for attempting to cover up their rather complicity in child rape after the fact. I want to know what pop-psychologists recommended these tactics.
[/quote]
The most common shrink recommendation was that the priest needed a new start somewhere else, and he had promised not to do it again. And you must understand, some predators come off as the sweetest, most innocent man alive, and it can be VERY difficult not to believe their lines. They are professional con men of the most evil sort. Look at the Penn State scandal.

[4588686]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1345655959' post='2472005']
The most common shrink recommendation was that the priest needed a new start somewhere else, and he had promised not to do it again.[/QUOTE]

That's what I always hear and what I was told when I was still Catholic. But in looking into this I haven't been able to find any evidence that this is true. I haven't seen any hard evidence that this was the prevailing view of psychiatrists in the 1970's or that this was the specific opinions given by psychiatrists to the Bishops. The only place I have been able to find this claim is in Catholic circles and I have never seen it cited. Maybe it is true. I don't know. But I've seen no evidence thus far.

[QUOTE]And you must understand, some predators come off as the sweetest, most innocent man alive, and it can be VERY difficult not to believe their lines. They are professional con men of the most evil sort. Look at the Penn State scandal.
[/quote]

And in both cases it would have really helped if the adults who were supposed to protect the kids had taken the matters to the authorities rather than but institutional prestige ahead of child welfare.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345657052' post='2472012']
That's what I always hear and what I was told when I was still Catholic. But in looking into this I haven't been able to find any evidence that this is true. I haven't seen any hard evidence that this was the prevailing view of psychiatrists in the 1970's or that this was the specific opinions given by psychiatrists to the Bishops. The only place I have been able to find this claim is in Catholic circles and I have never seen it cited. Maybe it is true. I don't know. But I've seen no evidence thus far.



And in both cases it would have really helped if the adults who were supposed to protect the kids had taken the matters to the authorities rather than but institutional prestige ahead of child welfare.
[/quote]
You must understand for the families of someone supposedly abused by a priest, minister, teacher, coach or parent etc the LAST THING THEY WANTED was anyone to know about it, including the authorities. Unlike today, the concept of privacy, for good or ill, actually existed in the 70's and 80's, and was not easily violated.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345657052' post='2472012']
That's what I always hear and what I was told when I was still Catholic. But in looking into this I haven't been able to find any evidence that this is true. I haven't seen any hard evidence that this was the prevailing view of psychiatrists in the 1970's or that this was the specific opinions given by psychiatrists to the Bishops. The only place I have been able to find this claim is in Catholic circles and I have never seen it cited. Maybe it is true. I don't know. But I've seen no evidence thus far.
[/quote]


Phil Lawler from Catholic Culture has actually done quite a bit of research on this, I'll see what I can find.

(FYI, he was the one who really broke the story about the abuse scandals, and kept pushing the bishops to get something done. He's not a real big fan of how the bishops handled everything. Still isn't.)

[4588686]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1345659000' post='2472023']
You must understand for the families of someone supposedly abused by a priest, minister, teacher, coach or parent etc the LAST THING THEY WANTED was anyone to know about it, including the authorities. Unlike today, the concept of privacy, for good or ill, actually existed in the 70's and 80's, and was not easily violated.
[/quote]

That's a very different claim from the assertion that the Bishops were simply bowing to the wisdom of the times. As I think I said before, nobody blames the Bishops for believing the pedophiles might be treatable or attempting to protect the feelings of the family in a way that also protected other innocent children. If they had sent these Priests to live in a monastery or some other solution that would ensure that these Priests were never around children again (after the families made it clear that they didn't want the crime made public) then I think people would say their actions were wrong but understandable.

As for the other claim, I did find this:

[url="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/us/03church.html?_r=2&hpw"]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/us/03church.html?_r=2&hpw[/url]

[color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4]
[i]Second, Bishop Cupich said of Father Fitzgerald, “His views, by and large, were considered bizarre with regard to not treating people medically, but only spiritually, and also segregating a whole population with sexual problems on a deserted island.”[/i][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4]
[i]And finally, he said, “There was mounting evidence in the world of psychology that indicated that when medical treatment is given, these people can, in fact, go back to ministry.” This is a view, he said, that the bishops came to regret.[/i][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4]
[i]A Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said he could not comment because he did not have enough information.[/i][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4]
[i]Responding to Bishop Cupich’s comment about Father Fitzgerald, Ms. Zukin, who represents abuse victims, said: “If the bishops thought he was such a bizarre crackpot, they would have shut him down. In fact, they referred their priests to him and sent him financial contributions.”[/i][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Georgia, serif][size=4]
[b][i]She also said the psychiatrists who worked at the Servants of the Paraclete’s centers said in legal depositions that they had rarely recommended returning sexually abusive priests to ministry, and only if the priests were under strict supervision in settings where they were not working with children.[/i][/b][/size][/font][/color]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1345495214' post='2470761']
I'm really not surprised that the financial management in the Church is below par. Bishops and priests are trained in theology and philosophy, not finance and accounting. Why should we expect them to be competent in subjects in which they have no special training, and certainly no charism? I'm sure that in some cases there is dishonest stuff flying under the radar, but I bet that in most cases it's simply that we have a bunch of people with no business acumen running what is, for the purposes of this subject, a very large very complex business. Frankly, it's impressive that every single diocese in the US isn't bankrupt.
Heck, maybe when I'm done my commerce degree a diocese somewhere will want to hire me to manage the business end of things. ^_^ That would be kewl.
[/quote]

When we visited the old Niles College (the college-level seminary of the Chicago Archdiocese), which was technically part of Loyola University, we were told that Niles students could not take any business courses. This was back in the early 1980s. I don't know if it has changed since then.