What Many Have Forgotten And No Longer Appreciate

[mortify]

Peace,

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1345486428' post='2470668']
The problem with saying that is that you are completely ignoring the last 2000 years of Church history. I'm sure that when the popes left Rome, folks said "this is the worst spiritual time ever". I am sure that when King Henry VIII started executing Catholics for not taking the Oath of Supremacy, people thought that their time was the most awful the Church had seen yet. When the "Goddess of Reason" was exalted on the altar of Notre Dame, I imagine that there was much grief at the state of affairs in the Church and in the world.[/quote]

I'm not ignoring the last 2000 years of history, and although I do believe the period we are living is one of the worst spiritual crises ever, that is not the point that I was making.

[quote]
It's not new for a generation to think that theirs is somehow more devoid of manners, faith, and morals than previous ones. And honestly, we can't say "there are fewer saints coming out of this generation than before" because we really don't know. There are Martyrs everyday in other parts of the world. There are those souls who we don't know about but who go above and beyond. Sometimes it takes centuries for these people to be canonized. The attitude that says "well moderns are worse off spiritually" is akin to despair. The answer is not to lament it, but to go out and do something about it.
[/quote]

I'm realizing a lot of what I'm doing is correcting misinterpretations of what I said. I never said there are less Saints today than before. My comment, yet again having to go over this, was in response to a post that the changes to liturgy make it more understandable. My response was, that despite the changes there is more ignorance than ever, and even the traditional liturgy which supposedly did not permit active participation, produced among the greatest Saints the Church has seen. Clearly great spiritual benefit from the Traditional Latin Mass was to be gained despite there being an apparent seclusion of the laity.

And when I say "moderns" I'm not referring to people of a certain period but rather people of a certain mentality. The modern mentality is intrinsically against the spiritual order.

[quote]Also, given that the Mass is objectively holy and that at every valid Mass, Christ Himself is present in the Eucharist, one Mass cannot be holier than another. It can be more reverent, even more licit, but they are all holy and sanctifying.[/quote]

I suppose even one of those notorious clown masses can be holy too, right? But I think we would both agree that a clown mass doesn't give equal honor to God as a properly done OF Mass, and that therefore we should strive for that which gives more honor to God.

[quote]And the earliest written accounts that we have of the Mass are much closer to the Ordinary Form than the Extraordinary form of the Mass. Since both forms do indeed have deep rooted traditions, the Church has allowed and promoted both.
[/quote]

You probably don't realize it but the argument you just made is what Pope St Piux XII criticized as antiquiarianism. The problem with supposdely (!) returning to an earlier stage of the Liturgy is that it's disrespectful to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one who developed the Liturgy as it was known, and to say we ought to return to an earlier stage is to say human wisdom can do a better job. This is why Pope Pius referred to examples of antiquarianism as "straying from the right path." (Mediator Dei, paragraph 62) But like so many other things this reality has been obscured, forgotten, and sent down the memory hole. May God save us from this confusion!

[KnightofChrist]

Dude if you're not down with the Doctor maybe were not the bbf's you think we are.

[mortify]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1345496193' post='2470770']
I'm not mocking you - I happen to think a nick name derivation from KFC would be pretty c[i]o[/i]ol.
[/quote]

Im amazed you can honestly say you were not trying to mock him. Most people around here would consider being called "chicken man" a deragatory comment. What spirit made you say such a thing to another Catholic?

[fides' Jack]

I have no problems with the Doctor. I've just never had the opportunity to meet him.

What's a bbf?

See, we're getting along better already! How about "Sanders"?

[KnightofChrist]

Bestest buddies forever.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345496719' post='2470781']
Im amazed you can honestly say you were not trying to mock him. Most people around here would consider being called "chicken man" a deragatory comment. What spirit made you say such a thing to another Catholic?
[/quote]

It's all in the context, you know? "Chicken" is often a derogatory word, but I didn't mean it in that sense. I just think some form of a nick name from the fast-food chain who's initials closely resemble "my brother in Christ's" (wow, that's a mouthful) screen name would be co[i]o[/i]l.

Besides, I don't think he said anything that anyone here could classify as "chicken". It's purely a play on his name - and one intended in friendship. Nothing more.

Edited August 20, 2012 by fides' Jack

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345496719' post='2470781']


Im amazed you can honestly say you were not trying to mock him. Most people around here would consider being called "chicken man" a deragatory comment. What spirit made you say such a thing to another Catholic?
[/quote]

Yeah I know right. Feels like I'm back in grade school... but o well. I'm gonna go watch Doctor Who which is far more entertaining than old school playground nonsense.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1345497285' post='2470794']
Yeah I know right. Feels like I'm back in grade school... but o well. I'm gonna go watch Doctor Who which is far more entertaining than old school playground nonsense.
[/quote]

Huh - okay. Well, now [i]I'm [/i]the one who feels judged, or at least misunderstood. I wasn't mocking anyone.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1345497642' post='2470797']
Huh - okay. Well, now [i]I'm [/i]the one who feels judged, or at least misunderstood. I wasn't mocking anyone.
[/quote]

Honestly, it sounded mocking to me too. I don't know you or your intentions, but if I were David I also would have interpreted it that way.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1345488435' post='2470686']
Imagine the anger that would be unleashed if a traditionalist stated that " OF only parishes seem to cultivate a general disrespectful attitude toward the traditions and traditional norms of the Church."
[/quote]
It's not anger, but frustration and disappointment. And it happens all the time.

[b]"Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows."[/b]

[BG45]

(Placeholder most likely. Every time I hit Next, there's another new page after what I'm headed to read.)

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1345497863' post='2470802']
Honestly, it sounded mocking to me too. I don't know you or your intentions, but if I were David I also would have interpreted it that way.
[/quote]

I thought that might have been the case before I said it, and that's why I made certain to say at the time that I didn't mean to offend.

No, I've meant everything I've said quite literally. I like KoC (I don't know him, so I won't call him by his name that I just learned - I don't think he would welcome that). I agree with [i]most[/i] of what he has to say. I thought if I had a nick name for him that he didn't mind it would help break some of the barriers that exist between us.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1345498910' post='2470818']
I thought that might have been the case before I said it, and that's why I made certain to say at the time that I didn't mean to offend.

No, I've meant everything I've said quite literally. I like KoC (I don't know him, so I won't call him by his name that I just learned - I don't think he would welcome that). I agree with [i]most[/i] of what he has to say. I thought if I had a nick name for him that he didn't mind it would help break some of the barriers that exist between us.
[/quote]

That's fair enough. Just one of many examples where the medium lets us down.

[BG45]

Okay...caught up, I think. To paraphrase Fallout, my thoughts are, "The Liturgy Wars, the Liturgy Wars never change."

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345496570' post='2470777']
You probably don't realize it but the argument you just made is what Pope St Piux XII criticized as antiquiarianism. The problem with supposdely (!) returning to an earlier stage of the Liturgy is that it's disrespectful to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one who developed the Liturgy as it was known, and to say we ought to return to an earlier stage is to say human wisdom can do a better job. This is why Pope Pius referred to examples of antiquarianism as "straying from the right path." (Mediator Dei, paragraph 62) But like so many other things this reality has been obscured, forgotten, and sent down the memory hole. May God save us from this confusion!
[/quote]

Totally not how it was intended, but this paragraph, after reading EF vs. OF debates on PM for years made me think of all the "returning to the glories of the EF" talk. About how the "EF was way better and more reverent back in the good old days".

I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with the following statement, but one could interpret this comment as saying that we disrespect the Holy Spirit by seeking to return to an earlier stage (the EF) due to our human wisdom being greater than the Holy Spirit's overseeing of the development of liturgy (and the OF); unless one was to say that the OF is a human invention and that the Holy Spirit failed to preserve the Church and her liturgies.

/Devil's Advocate

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1345498910' post='2470818']


I thought that might have been the case before I said it, and that's why I made certain to say at the time that I didn't mean to offend.

No, I've meant everything I've said quite literally. I like KoC (I don't know him, so I won't call him by his name that I just learned - I don't think he would welcome that). I agree with [i]most[/i] of what he has to say. I thought if I had a nick name for him that he didn't mind it would help break some of the barriers that exist between us.
[/quote]

I would like to believe that but it isn't easy. It was clear from the start I didn't approve of "chicken man", nor any of the other "nicknames" you came up with yet you continued to ask. That didn't seem very respectful. No means no. If you truly want to be friends repeatedly asking if you can call me some kind of chicken man after I was clearly not going to be razzle dazzle with that wasn't the best way to start the friendship.