What Many Have Forgotten And No Longer Appreciate

[mortify]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1345432949' post='2470442']
I never said anything about the way Padre Pio celebrated Mass. And I know Mother Teresa or Gianna Molla never celebrated a mass.. He said that modern people are spiritually inferior to ancient saints.
[/quote]

I said there is more ignorance and less spiritual advancement despite modernizing the Mass. And I was not referring to modern people but modernists, there is a difference.

[mortify]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345444081' post='2470512']
I said there is more ignorance and less spiritual advancement despite modernizing the Mass. And I was not referring to modern people but modernists, there is a difference.
[/quote]

Modernists is probably not the right word either, I'll stick with the noun I used first, moderns. The point is that it's about a mind-set/lifestyle and not a period of time.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345444336' post='2470513']
Modernists is probably not the right word either, I'll stick with the noun I used first, moderns. The point is that it's about a mind-set/lifestyle and not a period of time.
[/quote]

And the other point is that's impossible to make sweeping generalizations about any time period. If you're going to assert that our current age of cruddiness is due to our liturgy, then you have to blame all the debauchery, political scandals, usury, and other sinful activity that took place among members of the Church's hierarchy, including the pope, during those 1000 years of Tridentine liturgy.

Come on, don't compare history's best to today's worst. There was just as much corruption and ignorance and sin in the past as there is today. It just takes on different forms.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1345324938' post='2469804']
Why an inaudible canon?
[/quote]

So you can't hear it when it goes, "BOOM!!"

[mortify]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1345470612' post='2470567']
And the other point is that's impossible to make sweeping generalizations about any time period. If you're going to assert that our current age of cruddiness is due to our liturgy, then you have to blame all the debauchery, political scandals, usury, and other sinful activity that took place among members of the Church's hierarchy, including the pope, during those 1000 years of Tridentine liturgy.

Come on, don't compare history's best to today's worst. There was just as much corruption and ignorance and sin in the past as there is today. It just takes on different forms.
[/quote]

The crudeness of our age is due to our modern mindset but that is not due to the liturgy. On the contrary, it is the Liturgy that has suffered because of our modern mindset. The original comment I made was in response to a post stating that they feel the mass is better understood in the vernacular and said audibly. If that is true, why do most USA Catholics not believe in the Eucharist? (Reportedly as high as 70%) I don't think it's false at all to say that our forebears lived in an environment that was more condusive to spiritual growth and real knowledge, cf The Crisis of the Modern World by Rene Guenon.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345474856' post='2470601']
The crudeness of our age is due to our modern mindset but that is not due to the liturgy. On the contrary, it is the Liturgy that has suffered because of our modern mindset. The original comment I made was in response to a post stating that they feel the mass is better understood in the vernacular and said audibly. If that is true, why do most USA Catholics not believe in the Eucharist? (Reportedly as high as 70%) I don't think it's false at all to say that our forebears lived in an environment that was more condusive to spiritual growth and real knowledge, cf The Crisis of the Modern World by Rene Guenon.
[/quote]

So you think that by making it so the congregation can't hear what's going on will make them suddenly realize what's going on? Because that's the other side of your logic.

Right...an environment that was more conducive to spiritual growth and real knowledge that also resulted in nepotism, popes with mistresses and children, misuse of indulgences, and "holy" wars? An environment that ripped the Church in half with the Great Schism and into pieces with the Protestant Reformation?

Our liturgy has nothing to do with the holiness/lack of holiness of a particular age. The only thing you can say about our "modernist mindset" is that we see priests lackadaisically celebrating our liturgy, and that those who celebrate the EF generally seem more pious because they're actively choosing a form that is not the norm, and are more fully conscious of what's going on. If they're already putting in the effort to do a more complex, non-standard liturgy then OF COURSE they're already celebrating the Ordinary Form with care and zeal.

You're confusing the form of the liturgy with the attitude in which priests and laity celebrate.

[Noel's angel]

Glad the good folks of Phatmass have got the whole Liturgy business sorted. Someone get Pope Benedict on here...I'm sure he needs the direction.

[jazzytakara]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1345428558' post='2470388']
I'm a cradle Catholic and don't use the books most of the time. I still like to hear it, partly because I'm a mother of 4 and often have little distractions down the pew. It's easier to get something out of the Mass when I can hear what's going on than *have* to follow along in the books or miss everything. When my 3 year old is being distracting I will often point to the cross and whisper in his ear about Jesus, or I will ask him to tell me where Jesus is. Where Mary is. Etc. But I can still hear our priest praying. Our Church has so many beautiful traditions and we are blessed to have both forms of the Mass available to us. I know people will argue that for the past however many hundreds of years mothers managed just fine without Mass in the vernacular, but you never know until you've been in those shoes. I've been to both forms with toddlers in tow and I, personally, find the OF easier to get something out of. Maybe down the line when my kids are older things will change but for now I am very thankful that I can hear all of the prayers being said.
[/quote]

And if your kids can hear it, they can learn the prayers too =)

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='jazzytakara' timestamp='1345478175' post='2470623']
And if your kids can hear it, they can learn the prayers too =)
[/quote]

Not all prayers at Mass are meant to be said by the people - and yet, I sometimes see people mouthing the words along with the priest.

I think it can definitely be a matter of attitude - as in, I can participate to a greater extent when I am forced to look inside a missal to follow along. At most Ordinary Form masses, I get into a mode of just not paying attention. On the contrary, my wife has been to a number of Extraordinary Form masses now, and simply can't follow along, because she has no idea where she's at in the Mass (she looks up and all she sees is the priest's back). Of course, her inability to follow along could easily be overcome with more experience, and for my part, I think I can say for certain that had I grown up with the Ordinary Form, I would find it more conducive to participation (without being so familiar with the EF). In the end, I think, it is my attitude that prevents me from participating in the Ordinary Form, and it is my wife's attitude that keeps her from participating in the Extraordinary Form.

We attend the Ordinary Form, because, well, it's the Ordinary Form - the norm for the Roman Catholic Church.

[mortify]

Peace,

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1345477434' post='2470619']
So you think that by making it so the congregation can't hear what's going on will make them suddenly realize what's going on? Because that's the other side of your logic.[/quote]

No, that's not what I think. As I said before, despite modernizing the Liturgy the laity are more ignorant than ever. Clearly the argument that introducing such changes would bring the laity into a fuller understanding of the Faith wasn't true (and that's my point.) As for fixing our situation it will require fixing our mindset.

[quote]Right...an environment that was more conducive to spiritual growth and real knowledge that also resulted in nepotism, popes with mistresses and children, misuse of indulgences, and "holy" wars? An environment that ripped the Church in half with the Great Schism and into pieces with the Protestant Reformation? [/quote]

I understand how you may feel but yes it was more condusive to spiritual growth and real knowledge because "Medieval" Society was based on higher principles. Like any true civilization It was properly ordered but understanding this will be difficult to convey to a modern reader, I refer you again to Rene Guenon. As for the instances you mention, they go to show the effectiveness of good propaganda, and addressing them all is beyond the scope of this thread. But this may be a good start:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Those-Terrible-Middle-Ages-Debunking/dp/0898707811/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3LK4X129HC6PY&coliid=I2ZA8C0Y4S9ROO"][color="#004b91"][b]Those Terrible Middle Ages: Debunking the Myths[/b][/color][/url][b] [/b]by Régine Pernoud


[quote]Our liturgy has nothing to do with the holiness/lack of holiness of a particular age. The only thing you can say about our "modernist mindset" is that we see priests lackadaisically celebrating our liturgy, and that those who celebrate the EF generally seem more pious because they're actively choosing a form that is not the norm, and are more fully conscious of what's going on. If they're already putting in the effort to do a more complex, non-standard liturgy then OF COURSE they're already celebrating the Ordinary Form with care and zeal.[/quote]

The point is the changes to our liturgy were a reflection of our modern mindset. The focus on the laity is a result of individualism, a key aspect of our disordered mindset. The idea of the Priest as mediator, like Moses going up the mountain to speak with God while the community waited in the valley, is lost to us. We simply don't understand such things anymore, and instead of forming a proper mindset we chose to alter our way of worship.
[quote]
You're confusing the form of the liturgy with the attitude in which priests and laity celebrate.
[/quote]

The form is a relfection or our attitude and way of life.

[EmilyAnn]

I am concerned by the lack of respect some people are showing for the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

[fides' Jack]

As you well should be.

[size=2]I totally imagined you saying that in a Darth Vader voice, though... [/size]

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1345484399' post='2470653']
[size=2]I totally imagined you saying that in a Darth Vader voice, though... [/size]
[/quote]



But seriously, how can people sit there and act all high-and-mighty and spiritually superior yet not even show the Holy Mass due respect?

What was it Christ said to do before you take the splinter out of your brother's eye? Hmmm . . .

[mortify]

Am I the one who is saying something offensive against the OF? Sometimes I don't choose my words carefully, what do you guys feel suggests lack of respect?

[missionseeker]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1345444081' post='2470512']
I said there is more ignorance and less spiritual advancement despite modernizing the Mass. And I was not referring to modern people but modernists, there is a difference.
[/quote]

The problem with saying that is that you are completely ignoring the last 2000 years of Church history. I'm sure that when the popes left Rome, folks said "this is the worst spiritual time ever". I am sure that when King Henry VIII started executing Catholics for not taking the Oath of Supremacy, people thought that their time was the most awful the Church had seen yet. When the "Goddess of Reason" was exalted on the altar of Notre Dame, I imagine that there was much grief at the state of affairs in the Church and in the world.

It's not new for a generation to think that theirs is somehow more devoid of manners, faith, and morals than previous ones. And honestly, we can't say "there are fewer saints coming out of this generation than before" because we really don't know. There are Martyrs everyday in other parts of the world. There are those souls who we don't know about but who go above and beyond. Sometimes it takes centuries for these people to be canonized. The attitude that says "well moderns are worse off spiritually" is akin to despair. The answer is not to lament it, but to go out and do something about it.


Also, given that the Mass is objectively holy and that at every valid Mass, Christ Himself is present in the Eucharist, one Mass cannot be holier than another. It can be more reverent, even more licit, but they are all holy and sanctifying.

And the earliest written accounts that we have of the Mass are much closer to the Ordinary Form than the Extraordinary form of the Mass. Since both forms do indeed have deep rooted traditions, the Church has allowed and promoted both.