4588686 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Fascism is nationalistic and conservative/traditional (or at least it uses the facade of traditional society to unite everyone). Capitalism is individualistic and will sacrifice anything in the interests of capital...traditional society cannot survive capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) If your business model is suicidal, you will sacrifice anything in the name of capital goods. This would result in the destruction of capital goods. Bastiat's essay on protectionism does a very good job dealing with this. Edited August 18, 2012 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 So Bill Gates is a fascist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1345299164' post='2469682'] So Bill Gates is a fascist? [/quote] Does Bill Gates believe in public/private partnership? Does he support private ownership of capital, with heavy regulation by government? Did he support any of the bailouts? Does he support the Federal Reserve? The New Deal? He probably is. Damned near every American is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1345317496' post='2469768'] Does Bill Gates believe in public/private partnership? Does he support private ownership of capital, with heavy regulation by government? Did he support any of the bailouts? Does he support the Federal Reserve? The New Deal? He probably is. Damned near every American is. [/quote] You're defining the New Deal as fascism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1345318189' post='2469771'] You're defining the New Deal as fascism? [/quote] Mussolini sure regarded it highly. I'm not alone. Price-fixing, destruction of private property to ensure scarcity (method of attempted price-fixing), confiscation of gold, nationalisation of the money supply...yeah. Fascism. floopy FDR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1345318677' post='2469774'] Mussolini sure regarded it highly. I'm not alone. Price-fixing, destruction of private property to ensure scarcity (method of attempted price-fixing), confiscation of gold, nationalisation of the money supply...yeah. Fascism. floopy FDR. [/quote] Mussolini was an opportunist. He would have liked anything that helped his political aims, and politics can make strange bedfellows. He was a modern politician, he had to make sure the people had jobs and bread as much as any American politician had to. Fascism is concentrated in one leader, one people, one ideology. That hardly characterizes America, and a LOT would have to change for such a situation to occur in America. Edited August 18, 2012 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1345318677' post='2469774'] Price-fixing, destruction of private property to ensure scarcity (method of attempted price-fixing), confiscation of gold, nationalisation of the money supply...yeah. Fascism. floopy FDR. [/quote] None of these things has anything to do with fascism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1345321344' post='2469790'] Mussolini was an opportunist. He would have liked anything that helped his political aims, and politics can make strange bedfellows. He was a modern politician, he had to make sure the people had jobs and bread as much as any American politician had to. Fascism is concentrated in one leader, one people, one ideology. That hardly characterizes America, and a LOT would have to change for such a situation to occur in America. [/quote] Although a lot of fascists were monarchists, at least the original ones tended to be, I'm not sure that a fascist state would have to have one leader. Obviously that is a tendency of fascism because of its authoritarian components but I don't think it's a defining component. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345324896' post='2469803'] Although a lot of fascists were monarchists, at least the original ones tended to be, I'm not sure that a fascist state would have to have one leader. Obviously that is a tendency of fascism because of its authoritarian components but I don't think it's a defining component. [/quote] I guess Mussolini's Italy was technically a monarchy, but I can't imagine a fascist state surviving long without an iron leader (not a mere figurehead monarch). Has there ever been a democratic fascist state (actually democratic, not nominally)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1345325165' post='2469806'] I guess Mussolini's Italy was technically a monarchy, but I can't imagine a fascist state surviving long without an iron leader (not a mere figurehead monarch). Has there ever been a democratic fascist state (actually democratic, not nominally)? [/quote] Well, I certainly would agree with you that a fascist state could not be democratic. At least not a liberal democracy. And I don't know that I'm even disagreeing with you that there needs to be one leader to act as at least the figurehead of the regime. But I mean I could imagine a fascist state where you had some sort of council, like a junta or something, where you have an authoritarian regime but the power vested in a body rather than an individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345325386' post='2469808'] Well, I certainly would agree with you that a fascist state could not be democratic. At least not a liberal democracy. And I don't know that I'm even disagreeing with you that there needs to be one leader to act as at least the figurehead of the regime. But I mean I could imagine a fascist state where you had some sort of council, like a junta or something, where you have an authoritarian regime but the power vested in a body rather than an individual. [/quote] I think a military dictatorship could definitely "mind the ship," but I think for the ideological thrust of fascism to work there has to be not merely a vague "authority," but it has to be personified in one messianic individual. Edited August 18, 2012 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1345325908' post='2469810'] I think a military dictatorship could definitely "mind the ship," but I think for the ideological thrust of fascism to work there has to be not merely a vague "authority," but it has to be personified in one messianic individual. [/quote] Well, I disagree but I'm not terribly confident in that disagreement. I'm just inclined to think that it is possible to not invest all legitimacy in one leader and still form a fascist state but it's not something I've put a lot of thought into and fell ready to argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1345326578' post='2469816'] Well, I disagree but I'm not terribly confident in that disagreement. I'm just inclined to think that it is possible to not invest all legitimacy in one leader and still form a fascist state but it's not something I've put a lot of thought into and fell ready to argue. [/quote] Well most of my familiarity is with Nazi Germany (and, tangentially, Fascist Italy). Latin America would probably be the best case study for what you're talking about, but I'm not familiar enough with that to speak on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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