Sspx Members Welcome?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1345524048' post='2471092']
*insert dramatic falling to my knees and throwing my hands in the air* YOU'RE TEARING US ALL APARRRRRT!!!!
[/quote]

[img]http://media-cache-ec5.pinterest.com/upload/64035625921899383_ngY7uuPU_f.jpg[/img]

[Studiumecclesiae]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1345485051' post='2470656']
Obedience is traditional.
[/quote]
So basically if your bishop encouraged you to have meetings with the muslims, to invite them in your church, etc. Would you do it? For "inter-religious dialogue" sake?
I think there are two kinds of obedience: blind, or intelligent.
The SSPX ordained the bishops in order to survive. Bishop Lefebvre was feeling he was going to die. And Rome had accepted that he'd get one bishop, but they would keep delaying the permission. The SSPX perfectly knew their technique was for the SSPX to lose their only Bishop. And they didn't!! Thanks to what? The consecrations!

[Nihil Obstat]

[left]No matter what one's views are on the morality of the Econe consecrations and whatnot, we still might also agree that Archbishop Lefebvre especially, and the rest of the SSPX were treated rather badly by a lot of people within the Church. In my opinion there were failures on both sides.

To set the stage for this, recall that Archbishop Lefebvre was the Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers. The Holy Ghost Fathers, following the Council, held a general chapter and essentially made it clear to Archbishop Lefebvre that his leadership was no longer welcome.[/left]
[left]
[b][extract][/b][/left]
[left][b][size=3][b]A Homeless Bishop:[/b]

The Archbishop left the motherhouse, one simple bag in hand. A French seminarian saw him and asked "Where are you going like that, Excellency?"
"I don't know..."
"Can I be of assistance?"
"Thank you, that's all right."
He found refuge firstly on November 1 at the Institute of the Holy Ghost on Via Machiavelli. A little later, he found a small room at the Villa Lituania on Via Casalmonferrato. It was maintained by the sisters who were attached to the Lithuanian seminary. He bought himself a desk, a wardrobe, and some shelving, and he had just enough to pay his rent with the ninety thousand lira he received monthly from the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith for his work as a consulter and as president of the commission responsible for catechisms in Africa. It was a role he kept until 1972.[/size][/b][/left]
[b][/extract][/b]

I think it's very sad. He offered his entire life up to that point in service to the Holy Ghost Fathers. He was among the best missionaries they had in French West Africa. He was probably their most effective bishop, and did a huge amount of good in the area. And this is how he was thanked, at the end of it all. It's a shame. How might things have been different? There are a few moments in his life where I wonder that. That's definitely one of them. How much more could he have done for the Church? That's something we'll never know.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Nihil Obstat

[beatitude]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345533488' post='2471154']
So basically if your bishop encouraged you to have meetings with the muslims, to invite them in your church, etc. Would you do it? For "inter-religious dialogue" sake?[/quote]

I would, for the sake of their souls, my soul, and the love of Christ. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having meetings with Muslims, and there is certainly nothing wrong with inviting non-Catholics in your church. We don't have a separatist beliefs in Catholicism, and we're not Mormons, with rules about who can enter our holy places. And I would have thought that inviting people into the presence of the Eucharist is good evangelism rather than otherwise.

I went to a SSPX chapel once, when I was fifteen. I didn't realise that it was SSPX. I didn't even know what the SSPX was. I had just been confirmed and was keen to discover my faith in its fullness, and I looked for a traditional Latin Mass, never having experienced that before. When I saw in the phone book that there was a local church offering it, I went along.

I left before the Mass even began because the atmosphere in there was so cold and hostile. I have never been made to feel so unwelcome at any Mass in my life. I was the only girl not to have a mantilla (I didn't even know what mantillas were, and I certainly didn't know where you could buy them) and because of this the women sitting in the pew behind me started to whisper and giggle. I could hear the catty things they were saying. Apparently whispering and gossiping in church is acceptable; being without a headcovering isn't. There was something nasty in the air, and the whole experience was saddening and disturbing. When I found out that they were SSPX a few years later, it all clicked into place.

You say that there is blind obedience and intelligent obedience. There is also a difference between loving tradition, and worshipping tradition - turning it into an idol and giving your veneration to that instead of to God. I'm not saying that all SSPX attendees do this, but the risk is there. The FSSP priests are able to foster tradition and offer beautiful reverent Latin liturgies without any need for disobedience. The Oratorians at my current parish do it too. But the difference is that they aren't presenting themselves as an exclusive little coterie, distinct from the rest of the church, and often worryingly critical towards the popes who followed Vatican 2.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345533488' post='2471154']
So basically if your bishop encouraged you to have meetings with the muslims, to invite them in your church, etc. Would you do it? For "inter-religious dialogue" sake?
[/quote]
"Then Jesus got up in front of the crowd and said 'Therefore, brethren, do not talk with any sinner or non-believer, as each of you is perfect and everyone who has not already heard my message is pretty much flooped'."
The Gospel according to St. Spix. (Thanks be to God.)

[Papist]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345533488' post='2471154']
So basically if your bishop encouraged you to have meetings with the muslims, to invite them in your church, etc. Would you do it? For "inter-religious dialogue" sake?
I think there are two kinds of obedience: blind, or intelligent.
The SSPX ordained the bishops in order to survive. Bishop Lefebvre was feeling he was going to die. And Rome had accepted that he'd get one bishop, but they would keep delaying the permission. The SSPX perfectly knew their technique was for the SSPX to lose their only Bishop. And they didn't!! Thanks to what? The consecrations!
[/quote]
Let me guess. Your obedience is intelligent.

Re your question. I would try to fulfill the Church's primary mission the best I could. Do you know what the Church's primary mission is? I would also invite SSPXers for a dialogue.

[spoiler]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html[/spoiler]

[the171]

We are a missionary church. Weren't the first bishops converts? And the greatest saints converts?? Why are you so afraid to dialogue with Muslims and other faiths? That is the only way they will know what we believe!!

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345533488' post='2471154']
The SSPX ordained the bishops in order to survive. [/quote]

Obey the Church unless I need to survive.

Got it!!!

[Lisa]

Happy feast day of St. Pius X to everyone in this thread
[url="http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=313"]http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=313[/url]

I think there's a lot in his life that we can learn from. His views on relativism are so important for our world today, and he promoted daily communion!

[Lil Red]

i Pope St. Pius X!

[Studiumecclesiae]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1345547355' post='2471186']
I would, for the sake of their souls, my soul, and the love of Christ. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having meetings with Muslims, and there is certainly nothing wrong with inviting non-Catholics in your church. We don't have a separatist beliefs in Catholicism, and we're not Mormons, with rules about who can enter our holy places. And I would have thought that inviting people into the presence of the Eucharist is good evangelism rather than otherwise.
[/quote]

I can't believe you can be saying such serious thing!
So to you it is acceptable these Assisi Meetings, and putting the two religions as EQUAL?
Look what Inter-religious dialogue leads us to:
[img]http://www.laportelatine.org/vatican/compromissions/coran_arras001.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.laportelatine.org/vatican/compromissions/coran_arras01.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.laportelatine.org/vatican/compromissions/coran_arras02.jpg[/img]
A muslim preaching like a priest!!!

Or worse... What is on the Blessed altar? Nothing but...
[img]http://www.laportelatine.org/vatican/compromissions/coran_arras03.jpg[/img]
The Holy Kuran!!!


I agree that the Church is missionary! But what people don't seem to acknowledge is that it already was SO missionary before Vatican II, and Mgr Lefebvre was a Missionary Father. And we got a great decline in missionary communities because of Vatican II and esp. this tendency to say "all religions are right, we adore the same God, etc etc." People lose faith because of this great heresy.
[img]http://www.laportelatine.org/mediatheque/sermonsecrits/TissierVillepreux101009/delegueApostolique.jpg[/img]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1345547355' post='2471186']
I went to a SSPX chapel once, when I was fifteen. I didn't realise that it was SSPX. I didn't even know what the SSPX was. I had just been confirmed and was keen to discover my faith in its fullness, and I looked for a traditional Latin Mass, never having experienced that before. When I saw in the phone book that there was a local church offering it, I went along.

I left before the Mass even began because the atmosphere in there was so cold and hostile. I have never been made to feel so unwelcome at any Mass in my life. I was the only girl not to have a mantilla (I didn't even know what mantillas were, and I certainly didn't know where you could buy them) and because of this the women sitting in the pew behind me started to whisper and giggle. I could hear the catty things they were saying. Apparently whispering and gossiping in church is acceptable; being without a headcovering isn't. There was something nasty in the air, and the whole experience was saddening and disturbing. When I found out that they were SSPX a few years later, it all clicked into place.[/quote]
Well I'm sorry but no church is perfect as we're all sinners. I've been to several SSPX chapels, and it's not necessary like that. You can't judge on a first impression. Of course it isn't allowed to gossip in a chapel!

No one is worshipping tradition. We are worshipping GOD, the Almighty. He is not our friend, we won't call Him "you" but "Thou", we won't show up bareheaded or with short sleeves, out of RESPECT. Boys won't show up wearing shorts, of course! Such lack of respect, and in particular, you wouldn't do it in front of the head of the state, would you? Same for God. Why should we have to meet the Holy Father (face to face) with a mantilla on when it's not obliged before the Almighty? It doesn't make sense.
Modernism does not make sense. You'd say "Our Father who art in heaven" but "Hail Mary... the Lord is with you", it's not logical.
So who is worshipping who? Don't say the traddies worship tradition, when they thrive to please God as well as Virgin Mary.

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1345549083' post='2471195']
We are a missionary church. Weren't the first bishops converts? And the greatest saints converts?? Why are you so afraid to dialogue with Muslims and other faiths? That is the only way they will know what we believe!!
[/quote]
Well dialogue is different from letting people walk all over us.

[Lisa]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345558795' post='2471220']
No one is worshipping tradition. We are worshipping GOD, the Almighty. [b]He is not our friend, we won't call Him "you" but "Thou", [/b]we won't show up bareheaded or with short sleeves, out of RESPECT. Boys won't show up wearing shorts, of course! Such lack of respect, and in particular, you wouldn't do it in front of the head of the state, would you? Same for God. Why should we have to meet the Holy Father (face to face) with a mantilla on when it's not obliged before the Almighty? It doesn't make sense.
Modernism does not make sense. You'd say "Our Father who art in heaven" but "Hail Mary... the Lord is with you", it's not logical.
So who is worshipping who? Don't say the traddies worship tradition, when they thrive to please God as well as Virgin Mary.

[/quote]

Ok, just addressing this point. The word [i]thou[/i], the singular form, was actually used as a familiar pronoun (in some inst[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]ances, as a derogative form) and does not automatically show respect.
[url="http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=thou&allowed_in_frame=0"]http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0[/url] .

For what it's worth, I do say "hallowed be thy name... and "blessed art thou among women." It's how the prayers were taught to me. But saying "thou" vs. "you" really isn't an argument for showing respect to the Lord.

[color=#000000][size=4]And...why, yes, the Lord is our friend. That's not all He is, by any means, but it's not disrespectful to say that He is. In fact, Jesus said it.[/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=4]"I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you." (John 15:15)[/size][/color]
[size=2][color=#000000].. using Douay-Rheims because it seems to be preferred.[/color][/size][/font]

Edited August 21, 2012 by Lisa

[Lisa]

P.S. I really admire your desire to give the proper reverence to God. It's something we can all work at, to be sure. I am really enjoying what you have to say (it makes me look things up and consider how I do things), and I hope you stay around!

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345558795' post='2471220']
Well I'm sorry but no church is perfect as we're all sinners. I've been to several SSPX chapels, and it's not necessary like that. You can't judge on a first impression. Of course it isn't allowed to gossip in a chapel!
[/quote]
How is it disallowed? Are people flogged for gossiping in a sanctuary?



[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345558795' post='2471220']
No one is worshipping tradition. We are worshipping GOD, the Almighty. He is not our friend, we won't call Him "you" but "Thou", we won't show up bareheaded or with short sleeves, out of RESPECT. Boys won't show up wearing shorts, of course! Such lack of respect, and in particular, you wouldn't do it in front of the head of the state, would you? Same for God. Why should we have to meet the Holy Father (face to face) with a mantilla on when it's not obliged before the Almighty? It doesn't make sense.
[/quote]
You know, I don't think many people would disagree with your logic on how to dress or even how to address God [b][i]IF[/i][/b] you would be more loving about it. Instead you come off as arrogant and judgmental. What hearts were ever won through anger and disgust?

Please, I beg you: do not come back at me and tell me that we should all be so angry about the state of the Church. I hear you and I understand the idea of righteous anger. I do not believe it is appropriate in this case.

I think, in general, the good people who identify with the SSPX really do themselves and the organization a great disservice by their arrogance. On those matters which we agree, I often do not care even to acknowledge because of the sour disposition.

Regarding "you" vs "thou" -- I've honestly no idea why this is such a huge issue, or why saying "you" or "your" in regards to God is disrespectful or profane. If you care to explain, I'd be happy to hear your logic.



[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345558795' post='2471220']
Modernism does not make sense. You'd say "Our Father who art in heaven" but "Hail Mary... the Lord is with you", it's not logical. So who is worshipping who? Don't say the traddies worship tradition, when they thrive to please God as well as Virgin Mary.
[/quote]
First: ... who is worshiping whom? (Sorry. It was driving me nuts.)

Second: I still do not understand your hangup on language. I also don't know where you got the impression that all of us pray so awfully. (I think it's pretty tacky for you to judge someone's prayers, but I won't go there right now.) I happen to pray the prayers with "thou" and "thy" and "thine". But you wouldn't know that because you've never prayed with me, don't know me. Here's my sarcastic thanks for passing judgment about me because I am a regular attendee of one of those terribly disrespectful and profane OF Masses.



[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345558795' post='2471220']
Well dialogue is different from letting people walk all over us.
[/quote]
I do not believe anyone suggested we let people walk all over us. You are quite the extremist, though this comes as no shock.



[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1345547355' post='2471186']
You say that there is blind obedience and intelligent obedience. There is also a difference between loving tradition, and worshipping tradition - turning it into an idol and giving your veneration to that instead of to God.
[/quote]
YES. Absolutely. So well said.



[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1345547355' post='2471186']
The FSSP priests are able to foster tradition and offer beautiful reverent Latin liturgies without any need for disobedience. ... But the difference is that they aren't presenting themselves as an exclusive little coterie, distinct from the rest of the church, and often worryingly critical towards the popes who followed Vatican 2.
[/quote]
This, too. Thanks, b, for such a wonderful post!

[BG45]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345533488' post='2471154']
So basically if your bishop encouraged you to have meetings with the muslims, to invite them in your church, etc. Would you do it? For "inter-religious dialogue" sake?
I think there are two kinds of obedience: blind, or intelligent.
[/quote]

Sure I would. I'd not encourage them to partake in Holy Communion, but I would have no problem in hoping that they would see the Truth of the Church by attending the celebration of Mass. This summer I had the honor of attending a friend's nuptial Mass and helped a Muslim friend, who had also been invited, to understand what was going on; she had never been inside a church before. No, I'd not care to see an Imam preaching from the altar, but I'd see no harm in a constructive dialogue in the parish hall or parish library.

If I had never attended Mass, nor Eucharistic Adoration, I would never have converted to the Catholic faith.

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1345558795' post='2471220']
He is not our friend, we won't call Him "you" but "Thou", we won't show up bareheaded or with short sleeves, out of RESPECT. Boys won't show up wearing shorts, of course! Such lack of respect, and in particular, you wouldn't do it in front of the head of the state, would you? Same for God. Why should we have to meet the Holy Father (face to face) with a mantilla on when it's not obliged before the Almighty? It doesn't make sense.
[/quote]

I think, as FranciscanHeart said, you'd find a lot of us agree with you on how to dress reverently for the holy sacrifice of the Mass, but you're rushing to judgment. I was in Philadelphia recently with a friend. The night before I went into the city, I went out with the man I was staying with and one of his female friends.

Much to my surprise, over dinner, the SSPX came up, in particular this very issue of how to dress. His female friend had signed up for a pilgrimage ten mile hike and had no clue what the SSPX was, she just saw the ad and was like "Oh nature, worshiping God, and bringing my Rosary. That sounds like a beautiful experience." She was eventually allowed to go on the hike with the group, though reminded more than once that her hoodie and jeans were definitely against the dress code.

Now, I know this girl, and I know that if she had known there would be a "dress code" she would have still gone and followed it. However, she didn't know, it was a nature hike pilgrimage after all. Some people though, are unable to afford "Sunday Best" clothing, and I would be upset to see anyone cast out of a chapel for failing to embrace a standard that has been set by men and not by God.

As for the Jesus as friend comment:[quote]
Douay-Rheims Translation, John 15:11-20

These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [u]You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you[/u]. I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.

You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that you love one another. If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you. If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.
[/quote]

Or a more modern quotation, from Pope Benedict XVI:
[quote]
“Are we not perhaps all afraid in some way? If we let Christ enter fully into our lives, if we open ourselves totally to him, are we not afraid that He might take something away from us? Are we not perhaps afraid to give up something significant, something unique, something that makes life so beautiful? Do we not then risk ending up diminished and deprived of our freedom? . . . No! If we let Christ into our lives, we lose nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing of what makes life free, beautiful and great. No! Only in this friendship are the doors of life opened wide. Only in this friendship is the great potential of human existence truly revealed. Only in this friendship do we experience beauty and liberation. And so, today, with great strength and great conviction, on the basis of long personal experience of life, I say to you, dear young people: Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ – and you will find true life. Amen.”
[/quote]

We are not called to cower in fear of God, nor His Son, nor the Holy Spirit. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling according to Saint Paul, but this doesn't preclude us from engaging in a very personal relationship with our God and King. If it did, we would dare not to call Him, "Our Father, Who Art in Heaven".