Why Did Joseph Ratzinger Dis' Apophatic Prayer?

[Gabriela]

I am studying for my thesis, and I read this in a book by a non-Catholic:

"In 1989, Joseph Ratzinger, not yet Pope Benedict XVI, published a letter in which he explained that apophatic prayer was an erroneous way of praying and had been a mistake for the desert fathers in their isolation. The attempt to immerse oneself in that which can neither be sensed nor conceived is found deep within the religious impulse of many non-Christian peoples, Ratzinger argued, and the God that one finds by the method is no more real than theirs. To dive into your center is to wallow in your soul. The author of [i]The Cloud[/i] was right, Ratzinger said: We humans cannot know God. That is why, he continued, we were given Christ, and that is why Christ and the word are crucial, for they enable the twofold movement through which humans can reach God and God can reach back to humans. Ratzinger has a point: If prayer leads to an experience of divinity that escapes words and representation, one might conclude that the words of the Christian scripture are as a kind of elaborate window dressing, no more accurate in their description of the real than a Buddhist [i]stupa[/i]."

I'm thinking there has to be more to it than the author states. Catholics have been engaging in apophatic prayer for centuries. For Ratzinger to come along and say they've been wrong all along seems extreme. I'm thinking his intention was to promote kataphatic prayer in an age when catechesis is bad and many people are turning to New Age stuff, especially Buddhist meditation. But I don't know what document she's talking about, and obviously, I could have this all wrong. I just find it odd that Ratzinger would call "erroneous" a type of prayer that seems more suited to some personality types (like those whose minds incessantly race with language and so need wordless prayer to silence it) and that has been used by many Catholics—including many saints—for centuries. Not to mention, apophatic prayer seems to me to be precisely what discerning folks do when they say they are "listening" rather than "talking" in prayer. And that silent "listening" seems to be AOK with all the Catholics I've ever discussed it with (which includes a whole lot of contemplative nuns).

Anyone know anything about this?

[Lil Red]

first, what the heck is apophatic prayer?!

and second, no, i have no idea what you're talking about.

[Egidio]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1345007370' post='2467814']
first, what the heck is apophatic prayer?!

[/quote]

Apophatic prayer is the emptying of ones mind of words and ideas. 'Centering prayer' is apophatic. I believe that i remember the document in question. Cardinal Ratzinger was addressing the unfortunate tendency of some Christians to use types of prayers that are not only foreign to Christian tradition, but dangerous to ones soul.

Centering prayer, for example, has been taken up by many christians, even some religious(!!), but it is a form of prayer that looks away from God and towards man. It is what you would call more 'anthrocentric', and if is not centred on oneself then it is centred on something which is certainly not God.

I will have to pull out the document to see exactly what was said, and i will get back to you if i can answer your question more fully.

AVE MARIA!!

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

centering prayer has been used many times, in the holy catholic church it is known as ejaculatory prayer. It is when you choose a scripture verse and repeat it over and over,i assume paticularily some of the verses of psalms. The holy rosary is the school of the prayer of quietude i was told. The goal is to silence the mind. Of course the hail mary is slightly different to ejaculatory biblical verses because it is part scripture verse part asking for intercession. But one must also take into consideration when jesus said 'repetitive prayer won't get you into heaven' but remembering he never villified such prayer. Unsure exactly what such prayer does. Remembering all i say often is part assumption. If any of that helps good.

Onward christian souls.
JESUS iz LORD.
GOD is GOOD, GOD is LOVE, GOD saves.

[quote name='Egidio' timestamp='1345015304' post='2467833']
Apophatic prayer is the emptying of ones mind of words and ideas. 'Centering prayer' is apophatic. I believe that i remember the document in question. Cardinal Ratzinger was addressing the unfortunate tendency of some Christians to use types of prayers that are not only foreign to Christian tradition, but dangerous to ones soul.

Centering prayer, for example, has been taken up by many christians, even some religious(!!), but it is a form of prayer that looks away from God and towards man. It is what you would call more 'anthrocentric', and if is not centred on oneself then it is centred on something which is certainly not God.

I will have to pull out the document to see exactly what was said, and i will get back to you if i can answer your question more fully.

AVE MARIA!!
[/quote]

Loving the AVE MARIA.

[Egidio]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1345003152' post='2467772']

But I don't know what document she's talking about, and obviously, I could have this all wrong.
Anyone know anything about this?
[/quote]

Its always important to make distinctions in these matters. As one of my professors once said "A brain without distinctions is the devils junkyard".

Instead of me trying to explain the situation, here is a link to the document of Card. Ratzinger. I recommend that we all read it before making any more guesses as to what the good Cardinal wanted to say.
http://www.doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

AVE MARIA!!

[filius_angelorum]

Read the document...Everything seems pretty standard to me. Apophatic prayer as conceived by the gnostics and eastern religions is an erroneous method of prayer in so far as it negates a personal relationship with the incarnate word. Moreover, the physical sensations caused by 'emptying' methods of prayer should not be confused with actual consolations of the Holy Spirit.

[Theresita Nerita]

I remember St. Teresa writing something in her usual tongue-in-cheek way about how emptying the brain of all created things, forms, concepts, etc. may be a wonderful prayer and all, but [i]personally[/i] she thinks that it's not a good idea to try to empty the brain of all images/words/etc because to empty the brain like that you have to avoid thinking about Christ's Humanity. She says Christ's Humanity is a much better way, and if someone thinks they're "above" the Sacred Humanity they must be quite a ways above her!

Or something like that.

[Gabriela]

Yeah, he doesn't dis' the Desert Fathers at all. He's much more balanced and qualificatory than that author makes it appear. Good 'ol Cardinal Ratzinger... ;-)

Thanks, Egidio, for posting the link. Thanks very much!

[filius_angelorum]

It is worth saying that almost all of the Gnostic manuscripts, many of which were either written or translated into the Coptic language (i.e., the best language ever devised) were found in caves and locations which were one occupied by desert monastics in Egypt. Some of those monks, definitely, went a little bit crazy out in their solitude....

[Gabriela]

[quote name='filius_angelorum' timestamp='1345240384' post='2469349']
It is worth saying that almost all of the Gnostic manuscripts, many of which were either written or translated into the Coptic language (i.e., the best language ever devised) were found in caves and locations which were one occupied by desert monastics in Egypt. Some of those monks, definitely, went a little bit crazy out in their solitude....
[/quote]

I did not know that!

[Ice_nine]

I feel like emptying myself of all words and idears would require unconsciousness. Or psychedelics. All the time my head is like on caps lock.

[Gabriela]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1345277534' post='2469627']
I feel like emptying myself of all words and idears would require unconsciousness. Or psychedelics. All the time my head is like on caps lock.
[/quote]

That's the point of apophatic prayer. What you describe is called "monkey mind" in the East. Meditation helps. Just make sure the way you do it is razzle dazzle with the Papa. ;-)