Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[Vincent Vega]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344966870' post='2467566']
You describe the usage of the organ in universal terms and back it up with documents that pertain to the whole world. So it's only fair to bring the rest of the world into the debate.[/quote][/font][/size]
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344823444' post='2466672']
Also, this is pertinent (in reference to "as laid down in..."):

"[i][b]D) Norms for adapting the Liturgy to the culture and traditions of peoples[/b][/i]
[color=#000000]37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples' way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit."[/color]

[color=#000000][color=#282828]For some context, so as to avoid proof-texting, the section you quoted above is immediately preceded by this:[/color][/color]

[color=#000000][color=#282828]"[/color]119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.[/color]
[color=#000000]Therefore, when missionaries are being given training in music, every effort should be made to see that they become competent in promoting the traditional music of these peoples, both in schools and in sacred services, as far as may be practicable."[/color]

[color=#000000]It's clear, then, that this part of the document is not referring to mostly white Catholic parishes in suburban America, but rather to the Church in partibus infidelium, where they may already have an existing liturgical tradition that can be partially or wholly synthesized into the Latin liturgy. Unfortunately for people who wish otherwise, mostly white Catholic parishes in suburban America are neither in mission lands, nor do they have an organic sacred musical heritage outside of the Church and her chant-based musical culture.[/color]

[color=#000000]The Church making allowances for native Africans to keep some of their musical culture does not give people the right to have P&W concerts in Mass. [/color]
[/quote][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][quote][/font][/size]
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]And since you are studying the organ, you are likely aware that if you did the "close your eyes" excercise when the organ was first introduced to the mass, many people would have answered the question of "what do you see" with "brothel"
[/quote]
That's fine. That was about a millenium ago. If you're wanting to debate what was wrong or right in the mass 1000 years ago, I'm not interested. I'm interested in discussing 2012 as it relates to this this:[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][quote name='De Musica Sacra' ]
[color=#282828][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]b) The difference between sacred, and secular music must be taken into consideration. Some musical instruments, such as the classic organ, are naturally appropriate for sacred music; others, such as string instruments which are played with a bow, are easily adapted to liturgical use. [b]But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use.[/b][/background][/color]
[/quote][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344967243' post='2467576']
The problem with that fillus is that with today's churches, you likely can't have a mass without electricity period. Regardless of what music is to be played.
[/quote][/font][/size]
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Valid point. The wind for the organ has to come from somewhere.[/font][/size]

[PhuturePriest]

I think the wind from organs comes from you two windbags.

(Since that can be seen as highly offensive I will clarify that this is just a joke. I realize this is a debate and people indeed talk a lot in debates)

[Jaime]

If you are willing to admit that if De Musica Sacra had been written in the year 500 the organ would not be used, then I would think you would concede the point that the guitar and piano could easily become universally accepted in another 400 years

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344968275' post='2467586']
If you are willing to admit that if De Musica Sacra had been written in the year 500 the organ would not be used, then I would think you would concede the point that the guitar and piano could easily become universally accepted in another 400 years
[/quote]
Maybe so. I know that neither are as suited to congregational singing as the organ, as neither are sustaining instruments, but who knows what sacred music will sound like in 400 years? Of course, it really hasn't changed that much in the last 500 years (at last compared to how much it changed in the 500 years before that). I'd be really surprised if P&W was still a thing in 400 years, since it's already dying (at least in Christian traditions with respectable music/musical heritages), but yes, by that point, perhaps the guitar will have lost enough of its secular character to be considered a sacred instrument.

Meanwhile, De Musica Sacra wasn't written in AD 500, it was written in AD 1958, and the guitar has a distinctly secular character, so until 2412, the guitar should not be played in the liturgy.

[Jaime]

I'm sorry but when did P&W ever get mentioned?

[Vincent Vega]

No offense is intended, Jaime, but you missed a lot of background on these things since you came in to the midpoint of the conversation. P&W is the root of this conversation, as this thread is a spin-off of the Lifeteen thread. Perhaps reading both from the beginning would help us avoid a lack of context when discussing these matters.

Edited August 14, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344967780' post='2467582']
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Valid point. The wind for the organ has to come from somewhere.[/font][/size]
[/quote]
I'm sure we could find someone to man the bellows.

[Jaime]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344968974' post='2467591']
No offense is intended, Jaime, but you missed a lot of background on these things since you came in to the midpoint of the conversation. P&W is the root of this conversation, as this thread is a spin-off of the Lifeteen thread. Perhaps reading both from the beginning would help us avoid a lack of context when discussing these matters.
[/quote]

I read the entire thread. But my point and my examples had nothing to do with P&W. I rarely play P&W at mass and when i do I do it with my nose plugged. i have no intention of defending every point in this thread. Simply the use of guitar

[Tally Marx]

I have not really discussed the "legality" of pianos at Mass with anyone. I asked my SD about it a while back, but he was in a rush and could nothing more than say, "It is allowed; don't worry." So I will have to ask, and try to find documents that state pianos are permissible, if there is any such document. In the meantime, I have a couple questions.

(1) Does one instrument being preferred over another automatically make all other instruments unacceptable? Because some people speak as though it does.

(2) What constitutes a secular instrument? No instrument was ever created for the express purpose of being played at Mass, and all have a secular history.

[filius_angelorum]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344967243' post='2467576']


The problem with that fillus is that with today's churches, you likely can't have a mass without electricity period. Regardless of what music is to be played.
[/quote]

Really, many old churches don't have much better acoustics. However, I was not speaking against electricity itself--I find this whole electric lightbulb thing fascinating--but including changes in technology as the basis for whether or not a particular instrument is adopted for liturgy. Sure, we might be able to come up with an electric instrument that is appropriate for liturgy, but electricity does not change a guitar from being a guitar. In re, however, of the theoretically appropriate electric instrument, I would say that even that instrument ought not be used if it obscures the human element of worship. I believe Pius XII had something to say about this.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1344970815' post='2467599']
I have not really discussed the "legality" of pianos at Mass with anyone. I asked my SD about it a while back, but he was in a rush and could nothing more than say, "It is allowed; don't worry." So I will have to ask, and try to find documents that state pianos are permissible, if there is any such document. In the meantime, I have a couple questions.
[/quote]

19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ. -- Tra le Sollecitudini,Instruction on Sacred Music, Pope Pius X

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1344974989' post='2467605']
19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ. -- Tra le Sollecitudini,Instruction on Sacred Music, Pope Pius X
[/quote]

I highly doubt this is the only document written on the matter, or the most recent.
I'll just ask my professors; probably won't get to it today though.

....I read Sacrosanctum Concilium, but that was years ago. I'll have to dig it out of my closet again....

Edited August 14, 2012 by Tally Marx

[Slappo]

I think the end of the world may come before the end of this debate

[MIKolbe]

we can hope

[Tally Marx]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344823444' post='2466672']
[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]Also, this is pertinent (in reference to "as laid down in..."):[/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]"[i][b]D) Norms for adapting the Liturgy to the culture and traditions of peoples[/b][/i]
[color=#000000]37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples' way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit."[/color]

[color=#000000][color=#282828]For some context, so as to avoid proof-texting, the section you quoted above is immediately preceded by this:[/color][/color][/size][/font]

[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=4][color=#000000][color=#282828]"[/color]119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.[/color]
[color=#000000]Therefore, when missionaries are being given training in music, every effort should be made to see that they become competent in promoting the traditional music of these peoples, both in schools and in sacred services, as far as may be practicable."[/color]

[color=#000000]It's clear, then, that this part of the document is not referring to mostly white Catholic parishes in suburban America, but rather to the Church in partibus infidelium, where they may already have an existing liturgical tradition that can be partially or wholly synthesized into the Latin liturgy. Unfortunately for people who wish otherwise, mostly white Catholic parishes in suburban America are neither in mission lands, nor do they have an organic sacred musical heritage outside of the Church and her chant-based musical culture.[/color]

[color=#000000]The Church making allowances for native Africans to keep some of their musical culture does not give people the right to have P&W concerts in Mass. [/color][/size][/font]
[/quote]

I appreciate your effort to take everything in context--it is a consideration not taken enough. But I think you should read all of [i]SC[/i], and pay special attention to the format. Each numbered paragraph is the beginning of a new point.
So, while it is true that 119 deals with missionary churches, it does not follow that the allowances in the second sentence of 120 apply only to "native Africans". 120 specifically begins with "In the Latin Church..."

Edited August 14, 2012 by Tally Marx