Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[missionseeker]

Actually there is a long history of liturgical Strife between the organ and the guitar (or it's ancestors). Because the jesters would play at the courts or in the square and then play some of the same tunes at Mass changing the words. If you read correspondence from the hierarchy during this period, there is a lot of disagreement as to whether it should be permitted. But the church put Her foot down and declared that it could not be tolerated that profane music be used at Mass. There is reference to this even in the documents from the council of Trent

So the practice was mainly stopped, but of course there were instances of defiance. And every couple of centuries the tendency to bring secular music to the liturgy emerges with force. The Church has never backed down on her stance Not when it was the jesters music, not when it was symphony concerts, not when it was operatic solos, and nor will she for modern day guitars or drums or pianos.

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344920288' post='2467357']
The organ wasn't given pride of place until after it had been used in Mass for 300 years. The guitar has been used for 40. Give me another 260 years and let's talk
[/quote]

[Jaime]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1344924048' post='2467399']
Actually there is a long history of liturgical Strife between the organ and the guitar (or it's ancestors). Because the jesters would play at the courts or in the square and then play some of the same tunes at Mass changing the words. If you read correspondence from the hierarchy during this period, there is a lot of disagreement as to whether it should be permitted. But the church put Her foot down and declared that it could not be tolerated that profane music be used at Mass. There is reference to this even in the documents from the council of Trent

So the practice was mainly stopped, but of course there were instances of defiance. And every couple of centuries the tendency to bring secular music to the liturgy emerges with force. The Church has never backed down on her stance Not when it was the jesters music, not when it was symphony concerts, not when it was operatic solos, and nor will she for modern day guitars or drums or pianos.
[/quote]

Mission what you've said is true but your prediction of the future is speculation. The Church is unchanging only in things that are dogma. Will the organ and chant always have pride of place? Very likely but it hasn't always. Nor has the Church ruled dogmatically on the usage of any other instrument including guitar. Nor will She.

[missionseeker]

So until we know for sure we should continue doing what the church has said not to do?

[Jaime]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1344924689' post='2467403']
So until we know for sure we should continue doing what the church has said not to do?
[/quote]


For the first three hundred years it played masses, the organ was not allowed. Yet today it holds pride of place . I have played guitar instrumentals for masses with the Archbishop. Why didn't he pull it out of my hand and smash it against the floor? Because he had the discretionary ability to allow for the instrument at mass in his diocese.

[missionseeker]

There was a lot of debate for the first 300 years about the organ, yes. But there was no decision until a yes was given.

There was also a lot of debate about dogmatic things at that point , too. The church was new then.

Edited August 14, 2012 by missionseeker

[PhuturePriest]

Do me a favor. Listen to this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLMeHBkLQJo&list=FLUGGv5nc6UFvmWHUWaeQDwA&index=27&feature=plpp_video

Now listen to this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX5HP0aYo98

Both are good, both are centered on God. What's the difference? One is made for a Rock concert and one is made for prayer. Which do you think is more appropriate for the liturgy?

[Jaime]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1344925057' post='2467405']
There was a lot of debate for the first 300 years about the organ, yes. But there was no decision until a yes was given.

There was also a lot of debate about dogmatic things at that point , too. The church was new then.
[/quote]

Ok so you are suggesting that because the Church had no specific rules that said "No organ" that it was ok? ( i have a huge problem with that but let's worry about that later) What Church document specifically names the guitar?

[missionseeker]

I'm saying that there were no specific guidelines until the church said it was ok. There were people who said it shouldn't be used - including saints. But the church decided otherwise. I'm not saying it was ok or not ok, I'm just pointing it out.

As for documents are you referring to then or now?

Edited August 14, 2012 by missionseeker

[PhuturePriest]

My comparison being said, I do not believe it is a grave error to have a guitar at Mass. I highly prefer not to, but I do not think having a guitar at Mass will destroy the Church. We have so many problems today, the important ones being Religious freedom, Catechesis, total cluelessness when it comes to the average Catholic about their Faith, Religious persecution, martyrdom, direct defiance against the Papacy, schism, sacrilege, liturgical dancing, Bishops not making use of their God given authority to rule the flock (Acts 20:28), and a plethora of other problems. Is this really what we want to make as our biggest gripe? As long as there are no beach balls and lighters being waved in the air I don't really think this is a big deal unless we get into obscene things such as drums and tambourines.

Edited August 14, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[the171]

They shouldn't have used the organ till it was approved and we should do what we are supposed to now. Be patient, y'all. If it is meant to be it will happen, if not it won't.

[the171]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1344926871' post='2467414']
My comparison being said, I do not believe it is a grave error to have a guitar at Mass. I highly prefer not to, but I do not think having a guitar at Mass will destroy the Church. We have so many problems today, the important ones being Religious freedom, Catechesis, total cluelessness when it comes to the average Catholic about their Faith, Religious persecution, martyrdom, direct defiance against the Papacy, schism, sacrilege, liturgical dancing, Bishops not making use of their God given authority to rule the flock (Acts 20:28), and a plethora of other problems. Is this really what we want to make as our biggest gripe? As long as there are no beach balls and lighters being waved in the air I don't really think this is a big deal unless we get into obscene things such as drums and tambourines.
[/quote]

1. **are
2. You didn't go to NCYC, did you?

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1344926298' post='2467409']
Do me a favor. Listen to this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLMeHBkLQJo&list=FLUGGv5nc6UFvmWHUWaeQDwA&index=27&feature=plpp_video

Now listen to this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX5HP0aYo98

Both are good, both are centered on God. What's the difference? One is made for a Rock concert and one is made for prayer. Which do you think is more appropriate for the liturgy?
[/quote]

Next time use solemn tone.

[Jaime]

Let's try an actual comparison

Here's Schubert's Ave Maria


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNUJA9N14eM[/media]

Now here's Schubert's Ave Maria

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGfC5sNqaBs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGfC5sNqaBs[/url]


which is inappropriate?


Which is more mass appropriate

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1344926908' post='2467415']
They shouldn't have used the organ till it was approved and we should do what we are supposed to now. Be patient, y'all. If it is meant to be it will happen, if not it won't.
[/quote]

If the Church says guitars are okay as long as guitars are played reverently, then it is okay. I honestly could never play guitar reverently, but this is because I am a Classic Rock guitarist. The entire point of Classic Rock is to thrash your head around and play high notes as a singer sings at the top of his voice range. If there are classical guitarists who would like to take this task upon themselves once it is approved then it will be okay. But again, this isn't one of our main issues. Pope Benedict XVI himself has wanted to make several changes, one of them being making sure the Priest is facing away from the congregation during the Eucharistic Consecration, but he decided this was not one of the biggest problems we have and so he pushed it to the bottom on the list of his things to change. I think we should all go by his example. If things are being done irreverently and you can tell the only reason people are there is because of the music, then changes must be made, but I have honestly never witnessed something like this.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1344927027' post='2467416']
1. **are
2. You didn't go to NCYC, did you?



Next time use solemn tone.
[/quote]

Bahaha. I can't believe you even remember the one time I said I would start explaining what tones my voice are when I post. Or is that what you are referring to?

And I actually fixed that typo before you got it, thank you. I could have been mean and pointed out a typo you made in this thread, but I chose not to because I'm nice.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344927195' post='2467417']
Let's try an actual comparison

Here's Schubert's Ave Maria


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNUJA9N14eM[/media]

Now here's Schubert's Ave Maria

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGfC5sNqaBs[/media]


which is inappropriate?


Which is more mass appropriate
[/quote]

The first one was quite beautiful. The second one didn't phase me at all. To give you a look into my liberal diocese, that's what all of the pianos/organs sound like here.