Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[the171]

I have no income currently and I am teaching chant (only buying one resource and using websites as my teachers) to a group of kids who have NEVER heard chant in their life. You don't need $10, 000 organs. The human voice buy itself as well as an electric keyboard with organ settings will work. (that's how we do it at Traditional Latin Mass at the cathedral and I sounds like a glorious organ.) I am transitioning them slowly. One piece of chant per youth event. Keeping acoustic guitar in (for now. I don't want to overwhelm the youth of the idocese) and slowly kicking the drums out. You do not need a fat paycheck. You need determination and a lot of prayer.

[the171]

If the church says guitar, then grab that guitar and rock out. But they havent yet. So hold your darn horses.

Just realized that sounded really rude. It wasn't supposed to. It was actually thought in a sweet, loving voice.

[Amppax]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1344917419' post='2467336']
Ignoring your repeated name calling and personal insults/judgements of people here who don't share your views. It is not mere opinion that the pipe organ and Gregorian Chant are better suited for Mass it is a matter of fact according to the Church. The two hold a pride of place because they are proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other forms of music and musical instruments don't have this pride of place in the Roman Rite. Most of the discussion has been in the context of the use of the guitar in America, not missionary lands where it can be acceptable. The guitar is just as old as the pipe organ. But the guitar wasn't adopted and it didn't become part of Tradition and it wasn't given a pride of place in the Roman Rite.

In any event you are making this far too personal and taking it personally far too much.
[/quote]

Where did he call anyone any names? I must have missed that part. Unless you take offense to the term "people." And KoC, I find it pretty funny that you're here calling someone out for insulting those that don't share their view. Something about pots and kettles comes to mind.

[Jaime]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1344917419' post='2467336']
Ignoring your repeated name calling and personal insults/judgements of people here who don't share your views. It is not mere opinion that the pipe organ and Gregorian Chant are better suited for Mass it is a matter of fact according to the Church. The two hold a pride of place because they are proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other forms of music and musical instruments don't have this pride of place in the Roman Rite. Most of the discussion has been in the context of the use of the guitar in America, not missionary lands where it can be acceptable. The guitar is just as old as the pipe organ. But the guitar wasn't adopted and it didn't become part of Tradition and it wasn't given a pride of place in the Roman Rite.

In any event you are making this far too personal and taking it personally far too much.
[/quote]

The organ wasn't given pride of place until after it had been used in Mass for 300 years. The guitar has been used for 40. Give me another 260 years and let's talk

[ThePenciledOne]

I feel like the view of 'proper' liturgical music is stuck in the times of the medievals, but for what it's worth the Church has developed past those times and some can't get past it....

[the171]

Nvm

Edited August 14, 2012 by the171

[Amppax]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1344921134' post='2467366']
I am not sure if I should be offended or not.
[/quote]

Why?

[the171]

Nvm

Edited August 14, 2012 by the171

[Jaime]

[quote name='the171' timestamp='1344921134' post='2467366']
I am not sure if I should be offended or not.
[/quote]

I sincerely hope I haven't offended you 171. I think the fact that you are teaching teens chant is extraordinary. The argument that I've been championing since I came to this place is simply this. Have excellent musicians, whether they be organists guitarists or pianists. It is a specialized talent to be able to play for a liturgy and make it reverent. If we start with excellent musicians, there is a better chance to get there.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344913534' post='2467304'] As far as that is concerned, there is nothing characteristic about either instrument that lends itself to a cultural perception. That is giving intrinsic value to an object and that's just poor theology.
[/quote]
Sorry, Jaime, you're at odds with the Church here:

[quote name='SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM']120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.[/quote]

[the171]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344921648' post='2467371']


I sincerely hope I haven't offended you 171. I think the fact that you are teaching teens chant is extraordinary. The argument that I've been championing since I came to this place is simply this. Have excellent musicians, whether they be organists guitarists or pianists. It is a specialized talent to be able to play for a liturgy and make it reverent. If we start with excellent musicians, there is a better chance to get there.
[/quote]

No it wasn't you, Jaimie! I totally agree with you. Especially being where I am right now in the transitioning stage. At this point, if the kids are paying attention, I'm happy. But if it's distracting them, then I plan to get rid of it. That's a problem we have at a lot of youth masses.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1344921042' post='2467364']for what it's worth the Church has developed past those times and some can't get past it....
[/quote]
That's funny, considering that none of the documents we've discussed have said anything like that.
Again, if you've got a Church document that says something to the contrary, please share it. Otherwise, I'll continue to consider your viewpoint nothing but personal preference and conjecture (at best).
(This comes off harsher than I mean it, but I'm too tired to rework it right now.)

Edited August 14, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='De Musica Sacra']b) The difference between sacred, and secular music must be taken into consideration. Some musical instruments, such as the classic organ, are naturally appropriate for sacred music; others, such as string instruments which are played with a bow, are easily adapted to liturgical use. But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use.
[/quote]
Close your eyes. Picture an organ. Where do you see it? In a department store? A movie theatre? I see it in a church.
Close them again. Picture a guitar. Who is holding it? Bach? Benedict? Clapton?

When it comes right down to it, the guitar is associated with profane art forms.

[Jaime]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344921724' post='2467372']

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Sorry, Jaime, you're at odds with the Church here:[/font][/size]

[/quote]

I'm sorry USAirways but this puts a light on the difference between reading documents and studying the discipline of theology. You are regurgitating what has been written without context. Go and ask any Catholic theologian on the planet these questions Do any inanimate objects hold any intrinsic value? Are condoms intrinsically evil? Are guns? Are there any inanimate objects that are intrinsically good?

The answer is no. Actions have intrinsic value not things. The organ has no intrinsic value either. It is a thing. How it is used has value. how it is used adds to its definition. Your snippet from Sacrosanctum doesn't give it intrinsic value either. It cites tradition.

Latin has pride of place as well. But we have the Novus Ordo. And the Church is clear on the the fact that the Traditional Latin Mass and Novus Ordo when performed properly are equally sacred.

I have never denied that the organ has pride of place so I'm not at odds with the Church. But there is nothing supernatural about it nor is there anything dogmatic about it. The main reason why the organ sounds better in most cases is that whoever is playing it has been trained for years.

[Jaime]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344922943' post='2467392']
Close your eyes. Picture an organ. Where do you see it? In a department store? A movie theatre? I see it in a church.
Close them again. Picture a guitar. Who is holding it? Bach? Benedict? Clapton?

When it comes right down to it, the guitar is associated with profane art forms.
[/quote]

Here's what's funny. Organs were used in department stores and movie theaters. Silent films needed pianos and organs to bring the films to life. Department stores used organs to bring people in!

and hockey rinks

and baseball fields

Now close your eyes again. Do you see the organ in a third world country? Do you see it in a church where the congregation can't afford bread for their children? Do you see the Church making rules only for Europe and America? Was Sacrosanctum Concilium written just for the US?