Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1344824170' post='2466676']
Who says we aren't a mission land right now? America has one of the most Godless, anti-Catholic cultures even known to mankind. I think we need to take special measures to evangelize our pagan culture.
[/quote]

I'm with you, australia too, we gotta love these pagans with some faith and hope, lets go get em. even if they don't covert with time and understanding they will be sympathetic to holy mother churches mission,surely.

:edit: and if that includes some loving in faith with hope upon a guitar with a joyfull noise, so be it at the bishops and parish priests discretion without tainting the liturgy.


[size=8]JESUS I LOVE YOU THIS MUCH.[/size]

Edited August 13, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

oh don't forget i think there may be allowances to paticular orders to the holy liturgy granted by the vatican, as far as im aware anyway unless the rules have done a backflip from the old varities of the latin rite, like the domincan rite if i'm correct. I may not be. <shrugs>

[Jaime]

Seriously people. Some of you have your noses so high in the air, you're going to need a chiropractor. I'm fine with people holding the opinion that chant polyphony and pipe organ are the bees knees of liturgical music. But there are people around here that act like the organ was playing at the Last Supper. People don't acknowledge (or just ignore the fact) that prior to the the 12th century, the organ was considered a vulgar instrument. It was an instrument that was used to celebrate some of the more tawdry activities of the day. When it was brought into the Church a few hundred years earlier, people didn't like what it represented. They found it to be a distraction from the sacrifice of the mass. (Any of this sound familiar?)

The Church has and will continue to adopt things from society and make them a part of our Catholic Culture. A pope did it with the organ. Another did it with Coffee. There was a little movement to put Christmas on the 25th of December (which not by coincidence pissed off a lot of pagans). The list goes on and on. Three hundred years from now, it is entirely possible that the guitar will have pride of place at mass.

Secondly, I play guitar. I have a minordegree in guitar. My professors (who are regarded as some of the best guitarists in the world) worked with me specifically on liturgical music. I've played guitar at masses longer than most of you have been alive. I will tell you that I can bring as much reverence to mass as any organist. I have played masses in a corn stalk hut in Central America. It was not lacking in sacredness and I can promise you the people attending were the most reverent you would ever see at mass.

The issue (that I've brought up ad nauseum) is not the guitar. The issue is LOUSY GUITARISTS. Anyone who can play Michael Row Your Boat thinks they have the ability to play at mass. And idiot liturgists say "Oh Sure!!" If you have a crappy organist, you are going to have less reverence at mass, the same if you have a crappy guitarist.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1344824170' post='2466676']
Who says we aren't a mission land right now? America has one of the most Godless, anti-Catholic cultures even known to mankind.
[/quote]
I'm not sure of the accuracy of your last sentence, as I don't think most of the rest of the developed world is any better in that regard. (Just look at how the Europeans and Aussies, etc. on here love to beesh about how America is supposedly so excessively religious and conservative). I certainly don't think America is currently a heck of a lot better, but I digress. Back to the main point . . . this hardly justifies a vast lowering of liturgical standards. Gregorian chant and such developed during a time of widespread paganism and cultural collapse of the Dark Ages.

[quote] I think we need to take special measures to evangelize our pagan culture.[/quote]
I'm not aware of a single person who converted from godlessness to the Faith due to our churches using crappy guitar music instead of traditional liturgical music.

If cheesy pop/folk/rock music in the mass was such a great boon to evangelization, we should have seen conversions to the Faith and mass attendance skyrocket in the years since such music first became commonplace at mass in the late sixties, but the opposite has occurred.

I'm not naive enough to blame all the problems in the Church in America on crappy liturgical music, but I think it would be foolish to think there is no connection between banal and silly liturgical practices and the decline of the Faith.

On the other hand, beautiful and reverent liturgies can and do help draw people's hearts and minds to God and the true faith. mass (Including my own father, whose first experience of the Catholic Faith was sneaking out to attend a mass with a Catholic buddy - back in the pre-Vatican II days.) When attending a beautiful and reverent traditional liturgy, one's mind is at least drawn to ponder what it is that has inspired people to put so much effort into producing something of such beauty and profound reverence, which can be a first step on the way to conversion.

Not so much when the mass has all the profound beauty and reverence of a TV variety show or pop concert.

While you can dismiss this all as superficial, the reality is that human beings experience things through the senses, and things such as music influence how we experience the truths of the Faith.

If people are looking for a good rock'n'roll show, they'll go to a rock'n'roll show, rather than to church. (And, imo, there's nothing necessarily wrong with a rock'n'roll show in it's place - which isn't the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.)

[Groo the Wanderer]

youth choir: none of the teens know how to play organ. you'll find very few that do anywhere in the world. so we have acoustic guitar, violin, viola, and cello and sometimes piano


and no...chant is not an option. nobody knows it to be able to teach it

Edited August 14, 2012 by Groo the Wanderer

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344904366' post='2467226']
Seriously people. Some of you have your noses so high in the air, you're going to need a chiropractor. I'm fine with people holding the opinion that chant polyphony and pipe organ are the bees knees of liturgical music. But there are people around here that act like the organ was playing at the Last Supper. People don't acknowledge (or just ignore the fact) that prior to the the 12th century, the organ was considered a vulgar instrument. It was an instrument that was used to celebrate some of the more tawdry activities of the day. When it was brought into the Church a few hundred years earlier, people didn't like what it represented. They found it to be a distraction from the sacrifice of the mass. (Any of this sound familiar?)
[/quote]
The guitar has existed in (close to) its modern form for at least as long as the organ has existed in its (close to) modern form. The development of the two instruments diverged, though, such that one took a (mostly) sacred route and one took a secular route. These characteristics of each instrument, then, have become ingrained in our cultural perception. Ergo, I don't think your comparison holds water.

[Anomaly]

Everyone has to admit a hockey game or seventh inning or merry go found ride is elevated to areverent level automatically whith the first notes from an organ.

[BG45]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1344910013' post='2467282']
Everyone has to admit a hockey game or seventh inning or merry go found ride is elevated to areverent level automatically whith the first notes from an organ.
[/quote]

I laughed.

[Jaime]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344909742' post='2467280']
The guitar has existed in (close to) its modern form for at least as long as the organ has existed in its (close to) modern form. The development of the two instruments diverged, though, such that one took a (mostly) sacred route and one took a secular route. These characteristics of each instrument, then, have become ingrained in our cultural perception. Ergo, I don't think your comparison holds water.
[/quote]

First of all stop calling me Ergo

Secondly, my point had nothing to do with "which instrument won the race". As far as that is concerned, there is nothing characteristic about either instrument that lends itself to a cultural perception. That is giving intrinsic value to an object and that's just poor theology. Plus if we're going to use your characteristic comparison with regards to when both instruments came into being, then the point you are trying to support gets lost with the piano. It came much later and was introduced much later to Church music than either the guitar or organ.

My point remains.

[Groo the Wanderer]

I do draw the line at electronically amplified instruments however. Also I don;t believe a trap-set (including cymbals) has any place in the Mass.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1344913939' post='2467307']
I do draw the line at electronically amplified instruments however. Also I don;t believe a trap-set (including cymbals) has any place in the Mass.
[/quote]

From a personal standpoint Groo I would agree with you. And there is some music that makes it harder for me to be prayerful than others. We're all human so that makes sense. But I gotta say the people who take the staunch and stuffy approach are usually well educated and not exactly poor. I'm not suggesting that anyone who has a degree in sacred music is pulling six figures. But the argument being made here is supremely narrow minded and Western European. It doesn't take into account that most of the Catholics in the world are not. The Church however does recognize this

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344898470' post='2467166']
That's the funny thing about Mass, we have to leave some of our own preferences at the door.
[/quote]

I second this. In my opinion chant should be mandatory. People who disagree can take a swing at humility for one issue. (Since people are confused a lot when I say stuff like this, I am intentionally being hypocritical for comedic reasons. Though I wouldn't mind it if chant was really mandatory.)

[Amppax]

Maybe this belongs in the other thread, but when they did our retreat for music ministry here at Franciscan (it was basically a series of talks on liturgy, given by Adam Bartlett) and the thing that was emphasized to us was that the text, and thus the human voice, was primary in all liturgical music. There was some really great stuff from the GIRM we went over, wish I could remember the exact stuff that was cited. I'll see if I can find it. Just throwing that out into the discussion.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1344909351' post='2467279']
youth choir: none of the teens know how to play organ. you'll find very few that do anywhere in the world. so we have acoustic guitar, violin, viola, and cello and sometimes piano


and no...chant is not an option. nobody knows it to be able to teach it
[/quote]

Chant is technically an option. There are many people who know it who in fact teach it. It would simply have to be more enforced. I'm not recommending this as a means to preach the word of chant in the musical world, I'm simply saying there are many who in fact know chant. There are many Monks and traditional Communities who would love to chant about how wrong you are.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344914584' post='2467315']


From a personal standpoint Groo I would agree with you. And there is some music that makes it harder for me to be prayerful than others. We're all human so that makes sense. But I gotta say the people who take the staunch and stuffy approach are usually well educated and not exactly poor. I'm not suggesting that anyone who has a degree in sacred music is pulling six figures. But the argument being made here is supremely narrow minded and Western European. It doesn't take into account that most of the Catholics in the world are not. The Church however does recognize this
[/quote]

Ignoring your repeated name calling and personal insults/judgements of people here who don't share your views. It is not mere opinion that the pipe organ and Gregorian Chant are better suited for Mass it is a matter of fact according to the Church. The two hold a pride of place because they are proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other forms of music and musical instruments don't have this pride of place in the Roman Rite. Most of the discussion has been in the context of the use of the guitar in America, not missionary lands where it can be acceptable. The guitar is just as old as the pipe organ. But the guitar wasn't adopted and it didn't become part of Tradition and it wasn't given a pride of place in the Roman Rite.

In any event you are making this far too personal and taking it personally far too much.