Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[Jaime]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1345063675' post='2468201']
I'm not terribly concerned about how any given instrument looks, but rather how the sound is produced, and what sort of sound is produced. I imagine the church is also more concerned with the sound produced, given the wording of many/most[/all?] of the documents about sacred music.
[/quote]

And if you noticed I was saying that the organ wasn't much like the xylophone. However if two instruments are to be considered similar, then it is perfectly justifiable to add how it's played as a component of similarity.

[Slappo]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345063151' post='2468190']
And here is the crux of the problem. If a guitar (an object) makes the mass less reverent, then it would make it less reverent everywhere, including South and Central America. Now if you hold that opinion, you are stating that the masses in South and Central America are automatically less reverent. the organ (an object) does not make a mass more reverent.

No one wants to make the argument that there needs to be better MUSIC for the liturgy. Now that's an argument where we would all be on the same side.
[/quote]

I didn't say a particular object makes the mass less reverent. I said liturgical abuse makes the mass less reverent. If the use of the guitar in mass in a specific area is liturgical abuse, than it makes the mass less reverent.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1345063970' post='2468205']
I didn't say a particular object makes the mass less reverent. I said liturgical abuse makes the mass less reverent. If the use of the guitar in mass in a specific area is liturgical abuse, than it makes the mass less reverent.
[/quote]

Ok then with that statement, show me how the first 300 years of organ didn't make the mass less reverent?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345063936' post='2468203']
And if you noticed I was saying that the organ wasn't much like the xylophone. However if two instruments are to be considered similar, then it is perfectly justifiable to add how it's played as a component of similarity.
[/quote]
I'm not a percussionist, but I wouldn't imagine that the xylophone is played with the fingertips.

I might could try playing the organ with mallets one Sunday...better wait until I have another job lined up, though...

[Slappo]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345064178' post='2468207']
Ok then with that statement, show me how the first 300 years of organ didn't make the mass less reverent?
[/quote]

I never said anything on whether guitars are a liturgical abuse as I'm not going to get into that debate. I simply said "[b]if the use of guitars...[/b]"

I'm avoiding taking a position because it's not an area of expertise of mine. I'm just sayin... guitars = mass less reverent is not a new idea to PM.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1345064209' post='2468209']
I'm not a percussionist, but I wouldn't imagine that the xylophone is played with the fingertips.

I might could try playing the organ with mallets one Sunday...better wait until I have another job lined up, though...
[/quote]
I almost died laughing at this. NO, REALLY.

Oh man. Hilarious.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345056803' post='2468116']
By the way, cythara is latin and refers to a harp.
[/quote]

and is "sitara" in spanish (with an accent on the i).

[Vincent Vega]

Of interest:
[quote][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Cittern.gif/140px-Cittern.gif[/img]
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"[color=#000000][background=rgb(249, 249, 249)]A cittern, labeled [/background][/color][i]cythara Italica et Germanica[/i][color=#000000][background=rgb(249, 249, 249)] (to distinguish it from other instruments also referred to as [/background][/color][i][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cithara"]cithara[/url][/i][color=#000000][background=rgb(249, 249, 249)] in the Latin of the era), from [/background][/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_Kircher"]Kircher's[/url][i]Musurgia Universalis"[/i][/quote][/font][/size]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cittern

So there were at least a couple kinds of [i]cythara[/i], some examples of which don't look incredibly foreign to the guitar.

Edited August 15, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345063151' post='2468190']
And here is the crux of the problem. If a guitar (an object) makes the mass less reverent, then it would make it less reverent everywhere, including South and Central America. Now if you hold that opinion, you are stating that the masses in South and Central America are automatically less reverent. the organ (an object) does not make a mass more reverent.

No one wants to make the argument that there needs to be better MUSIC for the liturgy. Now that's an argument where we would all be on the same side.
[/quote]

I love you Jamie. Really. Although it really should say "Latin America", because even in Mexico and the Carribean (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Dominican Republic) the guitar is the instrument of choice.

I agree ... there needs to be better music. Better trained musicians. Professionally paid musicians.

Case in point -- at most of the parishes that I have been at, the organist that plays at the english speaking Masses is paid (and quite well for an hour's worth of work, from what I can tell). However, those that play at the Spanish Masses, for the most part are volunteers.

For the first time since I've ever started playing at Mass (back in 1997), I have started getting a small stipend (really small -- it sort of covers gas money) every time I play at a particular parish.

I can hear the argument -- well, get the organist to come to the Spanish Mass. Well -- it will change the music. And you know -- that musician better be good at doing things by ear, because most of the times the written notes aren't followed (because the music that is published is toooooo high to be sung by those present). I transpose things all the time.

And shoot -- I'd be so happy if someone comes along that has years of training on classical guitar ... and that the person would be willing to play for free. Wow. That would be wonderful. That would be great to hear at Mass. No -- I'm not that good at all, and considering that I am not a career musician I don't have the extra time to do. But I do my best, and I do it with a heart for God.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1345066382' post='2468222'](and quite well for an [i][b]hour's worth of work[/b][/i], from what I can tell).
[/quote]
lololololololololololololololololol

[Jaime]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1345066059' post='2468219']
Of interest:
[/font][/size]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cittern"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cittern[/url]

So there were at least a couple kinds of [i]cythara[/i], some examples of which don't look incredibly foreign to the guitar.
[/quote]

that's still a mandolin.

[Jaime]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1345064209' post='2468209']
I'm not a percussionist, but I wouldn't imagine that the xylophone is played with the fingertips.

I might could try playing the organ with mallets one Sunday...better wait until I have another job lined up, though...
[/quote]

I have a feeling that if someone set you down and handed you a mallet, you could quite effectively sight read a melody line without much hesitation.

[Groo the Wanderer]

most of the people in our spanish choirs can;t read music either, so they play by ear. unfortunately they learn the chords and rhythms by watching telemundo...

derp


and no i aint bagging on them. they actually told me this..

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345069462' post='2468253']
I have a feeling that if someone set you down and handed you a mallet, you could quite effectively sight read a melody line without much hesitation.
[/quote]
Same if I were to tune the mandolin string pairs to E-B-G-D then.

[inperpetuity]

[color=#000000]"This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful." [/color]

[color=#000000]The fact that Catholics must rely on the interpretation of the USCCB for this makes me shiver with......fright?[/color]

Edited August 15, 2012 by inperpetuity