Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[missionseeker]

[quote]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Now I'm not fluent in italian. But the word chitarra is not in that paragraph. And using online translation we get this



Mandolins not guitars. We could talk about context and whether or not he's providing information in this paragraph or actually making a declarative statement. But it doesn't matter. He said mandolins.[/font][/size]
[/quote]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Did you not read the next few words? And similar instruments. I understand that mandolin and guitar are different. But are they not similar? [/font][/size]


[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]And, I was not using third party quotes. Like I said, that document is in a book of documents. I had to do a lot of that kind of research for my thesis and I remembered it. The book was an English translation approved by the Vatican. [/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345020939' post='2467848']
Well i was clear that I never accused anyone of being wealthy. I said "not exactly poor" which is correct. By the fact that you live in where you have internet on your phone, you are not poor. But the roman rite isn't the foundation of western culture. It's the foundation of South American, Central American, African, etc. cultures as well. It is universal. THAT'S my point. People who debate the context of the mass will do so primarily from the mindset of "how does it impact my culture" and that is not appropriate. Because the Church was not designed just for our culture. We should have a global understanding of Church teachings. If we don't, we lose out.
[/quote][/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Actually, I recently sold 85%+ of everything that I owned, had to vacate a lease early and had to move back with my parents because I couldn't afford anything. They pay for my phone because I babysit my younger brothers while they are at work and it gives them a way to keep in touch with us. Before that, I had a pay by month thing which I often could not afford and so it got shut of for weeks at a time. If my parents were not paying the bill, I wouldn't have it. There were actually times when I really couldn't even afford food, so please don't think that just because I am using a phone with internet that I am able to afford it. I owe a lot of gratitude to my parents because otherwise, I'd be pretty bad off. [/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I realize that this is NOTHING compared to other places and that I have way more than most. But that does not make it ok for you to say "well they aren't poor, and they're narrowminded westerners so they're wrong" Which is not exactly what you said, but that's how it comes off.[/font][/size]


[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Roman rite is the foundation of Western culture.

[quote]
I'm not sure why you are not conceding this point. You quoted people who were quoting Pope Benedict (and were doing so poorly). Third party documentation can be wrong and in this case is wrong. You can go directly to the source at www.papalencyclicals.net. They have been reproducing with permission all documents from the Vatican Publishing House. The encyclical has not been changed in any way. The word guitar (chitarra) does not appear anywhere in the encyclical.[/font][/size]
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/quote] [/font][/size]
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]See above. [/font][/size]
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][quote]

I asked you to provide a binding document that explicitly bans the guitar by name. Why? Because you said this



You were saying since nothing precluded the organ, it was allowable. (I would still argue that point) But let's agree on this, the organ was played for three hundred years while there were very holy and learned people who were for the organ and who were very much against it. This is actually talked about in the encyclical you had the wrong quote for.[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/quote] [/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Again, I would love to see how you justify the argument that because the guitar is (in your opinion) never mentioned in a binding document, it's ok to use it. Even though many popes have written that instruments mostly associated with the secular realm, stringed instruments that are plucked, or instruments similar to the guitar HAVE been disallowed. Because this what you are saying I was saying about the organ.[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][quote]
I'm glad I didn't piss you off. And for the record (and I've said this a few times) I don't have a problem with people who prefer the organ, chant, or polyphony. That is their right. I get riled up when people try to suggest that organ chant or polyphony make for a more sacred or reverent mass just because. It's not objectively true. The organ and chant have pride of place in the Mass. But so does latin. Just as some tried to argue that latin made mass more reverent and sacred. The Church has spoken very clearly that this is not the case.

The guitar is accepted at mass in Central and South America. The total population of Catholics there is six times the population in the US.

The bishops have the right to allow particular instruments in their diocese. Mine obviously gives permission for guitar in the archdiocese of Minneapolis and Saint Paul.

In light of these facts. It's clear the Church has not authoritatively banned the use of guitar.[/font][/size]

[/quote]
[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Central and South America are not under the jurisdiction of the USCCB. It's not clear to me that she has not since she has clearly banned the categories of instruments that the guitar is part of.[/font][/size]

Sorry, for some reason I'm having a hard time formatting. It took me about 30 mins to be able to post that...

[Jaime]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1345052186' post='2468056']


[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Wrong. He mentions cythara, which is the word you insist must be used. [/font][/size]






[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I would like to point out that [/font][/size]
[/quote]

When did I insist he use the word cythara?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345052097' post='2468053']
Mission if we're in a dialogue, wouldn't it make more sense to address my most recent response to you than some in the past that were addressed to others?
[/quote]

she's on her phone, it's going to take awhile.

[Jaime]

[quote][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Did you not read the next few words? And similar instruments. I understand that mandolin and guitar are different. But are they not similar? [/font][/size][/quote]

Seriously? I'm having a hard time with this one because you being a musician, this should be a no brainer. The mandolin has 4 sets of paired strings tuned in the same fashion as a violin. It's about as similar to a guitar as an organ is to a xylophone.

[quote][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Actually, I recently sold 85%+ of everything that I owned, had to vacate a lease early and had to move back with my parents because I couldn't afford anything. They pay for my phone because I babysit my younger brothers while they are at work and it gives them a way to keep in touch with us. Before that, I had a pay by month thing which I often could not afford and so it got shut of for weeks at a time. If my parents were not paying the bill, I wouldn't have it. There were actually times when I really couldn't even afford food, so please don't think that just because I am using a phone with internet that I am able to afford it. I owe a lot of gratitude to my parents because otherwise, I'd be pretty bad off. [/font][/size]

[size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I realize that this is NOTHING compared to other places and that I have way more than most. But that does not make it ok for you to say "well they aren't poor, and they're narrowminded westerners so they're wrong" Which is not exactly what you said, but that's how it comes off.[/font][/size][/quote]

well first of all, your parents seem like good people. Secondly you are overlooking the point that I was making which is this:

There are people who feel that because organ has pride of place, (as does chant and latin) that it makes Mass more sacred and reverent than masses that do not. They are wrong and narrow minded.

Now it has been my opinion that those people who hold that opinion are very likely well educated and not exactly poor. If you share this opinion then I guess you will be offended by my statement. I don't have a problem with people who are well educated or not exactly poor. I take issue with those who develop opinions from their education that are narrow in scope. I've never been in a debate with a Guatemalan who has never had any formal education on why their mass is less sacred because there was no organ or chant.

[quote][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Again, I would love to see how you justify the argument that because the guitar is (in your opinion) never mentioned in a binding document, it's ok to use it. Even though many popes have written that instruments mostly associated with the secular realm, stringed instruments that are plucked, or instruments similar to the guitar HAVE been disallowed. Because this what you are saying I was saying about the organ.[/font][/size][/quote]

Well it's not my opinion that the guitar is never mentioned specifically. I've demonstrated it. You seem to go back and forth on whether or not you accept that. You did say that nothing had been ruled about the organ for the first three hundred years and you inferred that it was ok that the organ was played while it was debated. The guitar is being debated whether you acknowledge that or not.

[quote][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=4][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Central and South America are not under the jurisdiction of the USCCB. It's not clear to me that she has not since she has clearly banned the categories of instruments that the guitar is part of.[/font][/size][/font][/size]
[/quote]
Central and South America (and Africa) are all a part of the same Church.The same documents apply to them just as they apply to us. If the guitar is accepted at Mass in cultures much larger than the US then there is still a debate going on. (much like the organ was)

[Jaime]

If someone feels for them personally that they have a better mass experience and feel more prayerful and reverent when there is organ, chant or latin, I think that's wonderful. I know plenty of people who feel that way. But if any of those people want to say that everyone should feel that way, then I take exception to that. And so does the Church

[carmenchristi]

Welcome to the 3214239874092873409182734290874th PM debate on guitars in the liturgy.... congratulations on your participation.

Pardon the sarcasm, but it [i]HAS [/i]been discussed before..[i]. at length... [/i]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1345055999' post='2468105']
Welcome to the 3214239874092873409182734290874th PM debate on guitars in the liturgy.... congratulations on your participation.

Pardon the sarcasm, but it [i]HAS [/i]been discussed before..[i]. at length... [/i]
[/quote]

yes, but there's been points brought up in this thread that i know i haven't read before.

[Jaime]

[quote name='carmenchristi' timestamp='1345055999' post='2468105']
Welcome to the 3214239874092873409182734290874th PM debate on guitars in the liturgy.... congratulations on your participation.

Pardon the sarcasm, but it [i]HAS [/i]been discussed before..[i]. at length... [/i]
[/quote]

Says the person whos been here for a year

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345056598' post='2468114']
Says the person whos been here for a year
[/quote]
How did I know length of time at PM would eventually get injected into this argument somehow?

[i]I'm older! I've been here longer! MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY![/i]

Sometimes this debate table looks like a sand box at the church preschool.

[Jaime]

By the way, cythara is latin and refers to a harp.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345054601' post='2468086']
If someone feels for them personally that they have a better mass experience and feel more prayerful and reverent when there is organ, chant or latin, I think that's wonderful. I know plenty of people who feel that way. But if any of those people want to say that everyone should feel that way, then I take exception to that. And so does the Church
[/quote]

they're not saying that people *have* to feel a certain way about organ/chant/latin. (unless I missed that post.) in fact, i read some posts from the same people arguing for chant/organ say that those things aren't [i]preferred[/i] by them, but that the Church's teachings (as they see them) should be upheld. they're saying that the Church gives them pride of place.

[Jaime]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1345056734' post='2468115']
How did I know length of time at PM would eventually get injected into this argument somehow?

[i]I'm older! I've been here longer! MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY![/i]

Sometimes this debate table looks like a sand box at the church preschool.
[/quote]

I'm sorry but I find it weird that someone who's been here a year is complaining about how many times the guitar debate has come up. You and I both know that it's was beaten to death years ago.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1345056814' post='2468118']
they're not saying that people *have* to feel a certain way about organ/chant/latin. (unless I missed that post.) in fact, i read some posts from the same people arguing for chant/organ say that those things aren't [i]preferred[/i] by them, but that the Church's teachings (as they see them) should be upheld. they're saying that the Church gives them pride of place.
[/quote]

I agree and disagree. Maybe the better point I should make is that there are posts in this thread that suggest that the use of guitar makes the liturgy less reverent. That the guitar is only used with P&W songs. When USAirways wants you to close your eyes and imagine the organ playing and where you would be. Then do the same with guitar, is suggesting that he wants you to think the guitar makes the mass less reverent.

And just because something has pride of place does not mean it makes the Mass more sacred.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1345056925' post='2468119']I'm sorry but I find it weird that someone who's been here a year is complaining about how many times the guitar debate has come up. You and I both know that it's was beaten to death years ago.
[/quote]
We do. I just knew it would eventually come in. I was hoping we'd all just ignore the latecomer to the conversation (and phorum) and keep going.

Responding to posts like that seems to mark the beginning of the end. Want to wager on how long it'll be until this thread gets locked?

[missionseeker]

It's actually a pretty civilized thread compared to lots.