Usccb Allows Guitars At Mass

[BG45]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344967243' post='2467576']
The problem with that fillus is that with today's churches, you likely can't have a mass without electricity period. Regardless of what music is to be played.
[/quote]

Likely maybe, but as someone who has been to Mass without electricity, it is possible.

[filius_angelorum]

It is one of the silly things about the Novus Ordo that there are texts spoken aloud in huge churches from the front of the nave or in the chancel, rather than chanted, precisely because it makes audibility almost impossible without amplification. Of course, one can always choose to chant those texts....

[Gabriela]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344928092' post='2467428']
It's a trick question. Neither is liturgically appropriate
[/quote]

Why?

I don't mind being the "vulnerable" one in here: I was staunchly on the side of the "no-guitars-at-American-Masses-EVER" crowd until you put up those two videos. Now I agree with you: It depends on how they're played. I sometimes go to a Mass where the choir is just awful. I mean really horrendous. But I'm in mission country (Appalachia, USA, people), so the attitude of the liturgical leaders around here is, "If they volunteer, welcome them, no matter what." I think that's a bad attitude to have. It majorly disrupts the prayerfulness of many people at Mass when the drums are rockin' or the choir is squawkin'. It's better to go full-on a capella.

IMHO.

But, if that classical guitar playing guy volunteered, I'd take him over that organist any day.

Thanks, Jaime. ;-)

[Gabriela]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1344928132' post='2467429']
I was thinking more of the sound rather than the actual song itself. I knew the Salve Regina was not allowed in the liturgy.
[/quote]

Why would you think it wasn't allowed? (I'm genuinely curious, not criticizing!)

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1345000963' post='2467747']

Why would you think it wasn't allowed? (I'm genuinely curious, not criticizing!)
[/quote]

I've never heard it played at Mass. I've never heard any chant at Mass except for a Priest who chants the prayers.

[missionseeker]

I cannot find the encyclical itself, but in the encyclica, [i]Anus Qui[/i] Pope Benedict XIV wrote (and you can find it quoted in the more modern writings)


[quote][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][size=1][size=4]Venerable Brethren, will see that, if in your churches musical instruments are introduced, you will not tolerate any instruments along with the organ, except the tuba, the large and small tetrachord, the flute, the lyres and the lute, provided these serve to strengthen and support the voices. You will instead exclude the tambourines, cors da classe, trumpets, flutes, harps, guitars and in general all instruments that give a theatrical swing to music[/size].[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

I will grant you that that it's an... interesting mix of instruments mentioned, but it does indeed exclude guitars from the Mass.



De Musica Sacra (1958) says [size=4]"[color=#000000]a) Because of the nature, sanctity, and dignity of the sacred liturgy, the playing of any musical instrument should be as perfect as possible. It would be preferable to omit the use of instruments entirely (whether it be the organ only, or any other instrument), than to play them in a manner unbecoming their purpose. As a general rule it is better to do something well, however modest, than to attempt something more elaborate without the proper means.[/color][/size]
[size=4][color=#000000]b) The difference between sacred, and secular music must be taken into consideration. Some musical instruments, such as the classic organ, are naturally appropriate for sacred music; others,[b] such as string instruments which are played with a bow[/b], are easily adapted to liturgical use. But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use.[/color]
[color=#000000]c) Finally, only instruments which are personally played by a performer are to be used in the sacred liturgy, not those which are played mechanically or automatically[/color][/size]"

As I'm sure you recognize, when the Church makes a decision, she chooses her words very deliberately. The fact that the Church has qualified the string instruments which are easily adaptable to the liturgy is important. Guitar and harp (which was also expressly banned) are both plucked or strummed which is in contrast to the ones that are played with a bow. To play the harpiscord (plucked strings) in a Schubert or Bach Mass, my university has to have written permission from the bishop. In fact, to do any of the Masses where we brought in orchestral musicians, we had to have permission (which is not always granted).

Also, just so you know, as a person who spent her adolescence studying music (specifically sacred music) under some of the most prominent and well know sacred musicians in the world,it is discouraging, disheartening, and comes off as condescending when people say things like "I've done this for longer than you've been alive, (implied) so don't tell me I'm wrong" I've spent more than half of my life studying this and even if I am young, it's still wrong of people to discount my posts for it. I do my best to not post conceited sounding posts. If I mention that I 1)have studied under really famous musicians or 2) actually have a sacred music degree I'm not trying to boast, I'm trying to say that I DO know what I'm talking about, despite being young. Not only that, but I worked my ass off to get that degree (and since you have a minor degree I'm sure you understand the rigors of studying music and working full time).

I don't pretend to understand all of why the Church says what she says on Sacred music, but I do know WHAT she says. I have been witness to genuinely well played guitar music that was edifying, but the Church says it's not the instrument that should be allowed. I'm not all that fond of chant, honestly. There are a few pieces that I love, but the majority of the time, I'm kind of ambivalent towards it. But this is what the Church directs us to learn and sing and promote.

Speaking of which, you are wrong about young organists. They are not as rare as you think. I went to a small school and there were 20 organ majors. All of them were teens. Besides that, why are we not encouraging young people to learn the organ? Especially in light of the directives to have diocesan schools for sacred music?

Edited August 15, 2012 by missionseeker

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1344928022' post='2467427']
For me, both. The organ sounds like the Mass I have gone to my entire life.
[/quote]
Just wondering why you think it sounds so bad? It's not the best electronic I've ever heard, but not the worst by a long shot.
If you're referring to the solo voice, that's actually not a terribly farfetched reproduction of a cornet with a tremulant:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxpr-UVEi2A[/media]

Edited August 15, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[Gabriela]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1344967243' post='2467576']
The problem with that fillus is that with today's churches, you likely can't have a mass without electricity period. Regardless of what music is to be played.
[/quote]

Oh, but not true! Here in Appalachia, storms knock out our electricity rather often. The priest shouts the Mass. Then again, our churches are little country churches. I think you're right that, in most large, urban churches, it wouldn't be possible to have a "normal" Mass without electricity. At least, not in which the priest could be heard.

We also have all kinds of electrical problems, though. Oftentimes, the mic the priest wears gets nasty feedback and distortion that disrupts the Mass. Personally, I think ALL priests should be trained in Homiletics class to properly project their voices. But then, I teach public speaking...

Alternatively, we could just all go back to the MEF. (Please don't stone me. ;-)

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1345001660' post='2467756']
Speaking of which, you are wrong about young organists. They are not as rare as you think. I went to a small school and there were 20 organ majors. All of them were teens. Besides that, why are we not encouraging young people to learn the organ? Especially in light of the directives to have diocesan schools for sacred music?
[/quote]
It's true. Organ is coming out of a recession of sorts that's lasted for 30 or 40 years or so (gee, I'm trying to think what liturgical and social changes began happening 40 years ago...), but just a couple weeks ago I volunteered for a pipe organ summer camp of sorts for kids aged 13-18. We had 20 (which is the capacity) at ours, and 4 identical ones across the country also had full capacity (with the exception of one, which had two or three fewer than 20).
I'm going to try to find a recent copy of the organist's periodical that I subscribe to. It had data about this kind of thing in it. Hold tight...

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1345001847' post='2467757']
Just wondering why you think it sounds so bad? It's not the best electronic I've ever heard, but not the worst by a long shot.
If you're referring to the solo voice, that's actually not a terribly farfetched reproduction of a cornet with a tremulant:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxpr-UVEi2A[/media]
[/quote]

I'm a little picky when it comes to organs. I like pipe organs that you see in the huge traditional cathedrals.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1345002380' post='2467760']
I'm going to try to find a recent copy of the organist's periodical that I subscribe to. It had data about this kind of thing in it.
[/quote]
From the National Association of Schools of Music, from the period of 2007-2012, there were enrolled:
- 1039 undergraduate organ performance majors in 97 institutions
- 558 masters organ performance majors in 51 institutions
- 764 doctorate organ performance majors in 28 institutions

Source: May 2012 edition, [u]The American Organist[/u], page 7.

Not insignificant numbers.

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1345002617' post='2467762']
I'm a little picky when it comes to organs. I like pipe organs that you see in the huge traditional cathedrals.
[/quote]
Explain.
Any organ worth its weight in Marty Haugen's discarded tye-dye guitar picks is going to have one or more stops that sound more-or-less exactly like that somewhere in it.

Edited August 15, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1345003124' post='2467771']
From the National Association of Schools of Music, from the period of 2007-2012, there were enrolled:
- 1039 undergraduate organ performance majors in 97 institutions
- 558 masters organ performance majors in 51 institutions
- 764 doctorate organ performance majors in 28 institutions

Source: May 2012 edition, [u]The American Organist[/u], page 7.

Not insignificant numbers.


Explain.
[/quote]

I can't explain it better. Sorry.

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1345003173' post='2467773']
I could join in on this conversation and discuss the organs I prefer, but some of them pham might find it offensive.
[/quote]

Trolling in an offensive manner just like old times, I see.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1345003458' post='2467774']
I can't explain it better. Sorry.
[/quote]
I don't think you understand just exactly how an organ works. It's not like a piano, where you turn it on, and whoop, there's the organ sound.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1345003519' post='2467775']
I don't think you understand just exactly how an organ works. It's not like a piano, where you turn it on, and whoop, there's the organ sound.
[/quote]

My theory was that the wind comes from you and Jaime. What does that tell you about my knowledge of organs?

But really, I don't know much. All I know is my entire diocese uses pianos, and the parishes around me don't even try to use the fake organ sound, they just use the piano sound. Rather sad, really. I have a friend who is in his sixties. He used to be a Benedictine Monk and he has a degree in music. He is an expert organ player and he could tell you all day about them.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1345003930' post='2467781']
My theory was that the wind comes from you and Jaime. What does that tell you about my knowledge of organs?

But really, I don't know much. All I know is my entire diocese uses pianos, and the parishes around me don't even try to use the fake organ sound, they just use the piano sound. Rather sad, really. I have a friend who is in his sixties. He used to be a Benedictine Monk and he has a degree in music. He is an expert organ player and he could tell you all day about them.
[/quote]
All of these are played on the same organ:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuLPhrO2oYM&feature=plcp[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyCZ2vTftwE&feature=plcp[/media]


(Second half of post forthcoming)

Edited August 15, 2012 by USAirwaysIHS