Vincent Vega Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1344650765' post='2465851'] First of all, watch your language, kid. I'm old enough to be your dad and still in good enough shape to go a few rounds with you in the ring and send you flying through the ropes (and trust me, I have). [/quote] [img]http://miltownkid.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/internettoughguy.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1344650765' post='2465851'] First of all, watch your language, kid. I'm old enough to be your dad and still in good enough shape to go a few rounds with you in the ring and send you flying through the ropes (and trust me, I have). Second, admonishing the sinner is not being judgmental, it is one of the spiritual works of mercy. It may help prevent a repeat occurrence and may serve as a notice to others to not repeat the same action. [/quote]I'm amazed a catch like you has remained free range for all these years. Reinforcing their responsibility to be a parent to their child in their womb by congratulating them in not taking the selfish route and flushing the inconvenient blob if cells seems to be a pretty decent course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1344650765' post='2465851'] Second, admonishing the sinner is not being judgmental, it is one of the spiritual works of mercy. It may help prevent a repeat occurrence and may serve as a notice to others to not repeat the same action. [/quote] And every time a Christian does the "admonishing", they turn another person away from the Church and Truth. It's called Love and if that person is not a Christian show them Love first. If they are a Christian, gentle mercy is at hand. Save your 'admonishing' for friends and family, they are the ones that can take it without losing faith or becoming bitter towards God. I've seen it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 .[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1344650765' post='2465851'] First of all, watch your language, kid. I'm old enough to be your dad and still in good enough shape to go a few rounds with you in the ring and send you flying through the ropes ([b]and trust me, I have[/b]). [/quote] We have never fought. I don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1344658879' post='2465901'] And every time a Christian does the "admonishing", they turn another person away from the Church and Truth. It's called Love and if that person is not a Christian show them Love first. If they are a Christian, gentle mercy is at hand. Save your 'admonishing' for friends and family, they are the ones that can take it without losing faith or becoming bitter towards God. I've seen it happen. [/quote] Well, so much for this being a Catholic board if the traditional Catholic teachings such as the works of mercy are going to be dissed by the kiddies here. Any other teachings we are going to throw under the bus because we are afraid of driving people away, such as transubstantiation? Oh wait, people did leave over it, and Jesus addressed that - "Are you going to leave Me, too?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Tally Marx' timestamp='1344652922' post='2465864'] You mean how has being supportive helped prevent abortions? I've seen it quite successful. Care to assist me, and see what happens on a large scale? Now, as for out of wedlock pregnancy....that is not for lack of admonishment. It is for lack of education. Frowning upon unwed relationships is only going to alienate young people. They honestly don't understand what you are frowning about. They don't know what marriage *is*. Don't tell them what it isn't; tell them what it is. Don't tell them what they shouldn't do or have or be. Rather, tell them what they can have, and do, and be. Make them want to be holy, not just want to avoid punishment from you. [/quote] And people were alienated by Christ's words regarding transubstantiation, but did Christ say, "Gee, this is just alienating people, so I shouldn't say this"? Christ said that He came to cause division. The Bible also commands us to warn people if they are doing wrong otherwise we would be held accountable with them. If we warn them but they don't listen or are "alienated", then we are off the hook/CYB. Now, if you want to debate the best way of warning people, fine, but inserting a calm "I just wish it were under different circumstances" or a look of disappointment should not elicit temper tantrums in normal, reasonable people. Lastly, it is not "lack of education", but rather that society has gone from frowning on unwed pregnancies to accepting them as mainstream. I've seen the changes over the past 30 years, which is longer than many of youse on the board have been alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1344664895' post='2465936'] Well, so much for this being a Catholic board if the traditional Catholic teachings such as the works of mercy are going to be dissed by the kiddies here. Any other teachings we are going to throw under the bus because we are afraid of driving people away, such as transubstantiation? Oh wait, people did leave over it, and Jesus addressed that - "Are you going to leave Me, too?" [/quote] Right. We're saying throw it out. Or we could be saying that there is a time for admonishment, and a time for support. [s]And that reference to transubstantiation was inane. Absolutely nothing to do with this [/s] Well, that was seriously a stretch. Edited August 11, 2012 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344666744' post='2465952'] Right. We're saying throw it out. Or we could be saying that there is a time for admonishment, and a time for support. [/quote] Who says you can't do both?[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344659562' post='2465904'] . We have never fought. I don't understand. [/quote] I wasn't referring to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1344658879' post='2465901'] Save your 'admonishing' for friends and family, they are the ones that can take it without losing faith or becoming bitter towards God. I've seen it happen. [/quote] Oh, by the way, I thought that the context of this thread was that his was happening to a friend (or at least an acquaintance) of the thread starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1344667113' post='2465954'] Who says you can't do both? [/quote] You can, I'm just not sure if they work at the same time. I would say that its somewhat like how mercy and justice are two very different things. They both have their place. I just feel those are separate places. Although of course, God is both infinitely merciful and just at the same time. [quote] I wasn't referring to you. [/quote] I mean, technically you were, if one were to be a grammar Nazi. I was merely giving you a hard time. I probably owe you an apology for the initial comment. It was a little over the top. Mea Culpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amory Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I think offering an unwedded pregnant teenager support is probably more appropriate than offering congratulations, especially considering that she usually will see the matter as a difficult experience rather than as a proud accomplishment. However, I'd certainly not hesitate to express my respect for her having the fortitude to make the difficult but right decision to have the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spem in alium Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1344650879' post='2465852'] So, are they planning on getting married to the fathers? [/quote] I actually have no idea. I'm not sure they've planned anything beyond living together. [quote name='Amory' timestamp='1344668548' post='2465958'] I think offering an unwedded pregnant teenager support is probably more appropriate than offering congratulations, especially considering that she usually will see the matter as a difficult experience rather than as a proud accomplishment. However, I'd certainly not hesitate to express my respect for her having the fortitude to make the difficult but right decision to have the child. [/quote] True. Although I don't agree with her choice to have premarital sex, I respect her for continuing with the pregnancy. It would be a very difficult choice, and here there seems to be many options for women who want to end their pregnancies. She sounds very happy, and I really hope things work out for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I don't think anyone is saying we should just ignore the fact that the woman got pregnant out of wedlock or tell her that's fine, but that that isn't exactly the way to first react when she announces she's pregnant. For one, not all the blame can go to her, though she is the one with the visible reminder (of course this doesn't mean just dismiss it, but it does take two). More to the point, thou, is that a woman is very vulnerable when she falls pregnant, even when she's married. Her hormones are going crazy supporting this new life, which means her emotions are also a bit crazy, not to mention that she' probably nauseated. An unmarried woman already knows her situation isn't ideal (though she may not understand why exactly) and knows she will encounter judgment and criticism (actually, this happens to married women, too - just ask a woman whose family or peers think she has enough children or isn't in a good position to have a child right then; trust me, I've been on the receiving end of those judgments and comments). Societal pressure is all-too-often enough to cause her to abort. So the most pressing thing at that moment is to offer support, help, and encouragement. This doesn't mean her choice to have sex before marriage is celebrated, but that her decision to keep the child is. Back to the 15-year-old I mentioned. My mother actually knows her better, because my mother has helped her mother a lot. This girl didn't really see a traditional family until meeting my family and then seeing some of the people in my parents' congregation. Her mother has never been married, and her eldest sister has a child out of wedlock, too. Is it any wonder that she's done the same thing? Now, my mother has spoken with her quite a bit about how she should instead wait, but those conversations happen in the midst of a good relationship with the girl. I do not yet have that relationship with her to feel comfortable talking to her about chastity. Maybe that's a flaw in me, I don't know, but I do think there often needs to be a good relationship there to be able to broach that subject effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatitude Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 The best example of 'admonishing the sinner' that I've ever read was Jesus at the well with the Samaritan woman. The two of them were by themselves, and the first thing he did was to ask for her some water. He was very tired and thirsty, and although it was considered beneath his dignity as a Jewish man to accept water from a Samaritan woman - it would have made him ritually impure - he allowed her to help him. He acknowledged that, as a tired thirsty person who had travelled a long way, he needed her. Then he talked to her. Their conversation interested her. From the Gospel text, we can see that she is enjoying his company and intrigued by what he has to say. The fact that he was willing to take water from her - that he obviously didn't see her as dirty - has evidently bolstered her confidence in speaking to him and asking him questions. Only then does he mention her sin. "Sir, I have no husband." "You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands..." He still doesn't rebuke her; he just states the facts, without judgments. She believed in him. Then she went back to her town as a missionary and brought people out to see him, and the Gospel tells us, "Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony..." She was Christ's chosen missionary to that place. Not one of the disciples. A woman who had had five husbands and was living unmarried with a sixth man. Sometimes making a person aware of the love God has for them is the best admonishment. When I am at my most aware of God's love for me, I can't feel anything but sorry for my past sins, because they bit into me and took up space that I should have kept for that love, but didn't. There is always hope for redemption. For the Samaritan woman, that moment came when she handed a stranger a drink of water at the well. For the young woman mentioned in the original post, that moment could be her pregnancy. Blessed Mariam Baouardy, a Carmelite saint and mystic, wrote, "The most beautiful trees in heaven are those who have sinned the most on earth. They have used their miseries like dung around their roots." Being conscious of your sin can make you doubly grateful for the love and mercy of God, which makes you grow. But getting harsh with someone over their past sins doesn't help them to grow, it just cuts them down. A teenager who is pregnant is going to be scared, overwhelmed, vulnerable. Harsh judgment won't help (it never did in the days where societal shunning was the norm) and it isn't even our place to give it. The only difference between her sin and ours is that she's got a baby bump advertising to the world what she did wrong, while most of us have the luxury of keeping our own bad choices out of public view. She shouldn't be penalised in a way that we aren't just because her history happens to be visible - especially as she has since made a choice that must have taken quite some courage, which deserves all our respect. As the Poor Clare nuns at Hawarden are fond of saying, "Every saint has a past - and every sinner has a future!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1344647393' post='2465834'] Oh really? And how has that been working out the past 20+ years with the ever-increasing out-of-wedlock pregnancy rate? [/quote] You are absolutely right... my unwillingness to be a Johnsonville brat to a young lady in a bad situation is EXACTLY why other young ladies have gotten pregnant. please pardon the lapse in my logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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