Franciscan Sisters Minor Now Poor Clares

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='Pax_et bonum' timestamp='1345298645' post='2469680']
You're right. I've seen it both ways, and I kinda like this way better (obviously not a focal point in my discernment, though). Also, the choir is behind the wall where the alter it. You can still see where there used to be doors to get back there when it used to be the sacristy, but they're sealed now.
[/quote]

Oh yes, I can see the doors. Is that the choir behind the grille on the right?

[Pax_et bonum]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1345299311' post='2469683']
Oh yes, I can see the doors. Is that the choir behind the grille on the right?
[/quote]
You can't see the choir from the public side of the church. The sisters go to Mass behind the grille and pray the office behind the wall. Fr. David Mary is allowed in the choir to say Mass for them there every so often, and the bishop can say Mass there basically whenever he wants.

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='Pax_et bonum' timestamp='1345299766' post='2469686']
You can't see the choir from the public side of the church. The sisters go to Mass behind the grille and pray the office behind the wall. Fr. David Mary is allowed in the choir to say Mass for them there every so often, and the bishop can say Mass there basically whenever he wants.
[/quote]

Ah okay. I guess that grille must have an opening or something for them to receive Communion?

[emmaberry]

The altar-choir-grill situation is interesting, since so many communities do this differently. The Roswell PCCs have this setup:

[center]Nun's Choir[/center]
[center]Grill, with part of wall on either side[/center]
[center]Altar (priest faces nuns, while nuns and public look straight ahead at altar)[/center]
[center]Public Church[/center]

[left]I really like this setup, but I have seen the far more common Public Church where nuns are in hidden side choir and face the altar sideways. The Arlington Carmelites slant the altar so that both the nuns and the public see it as being just a little tilted. I thought that was nice![/left]

[left]THANKS AGAIN PAX FOR THE PICTURES! [/left]

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1345314047' post='2469750']
The altar-choir-grill situation is interesting, since so many communities do this differently. The Roswell PCCs have this setup:

[center]Nun's Choir[/center]
[center]Grill, with part of wall on either side[/center]
[center]Altar (priest faces nuns, while nuns and public look straight ahead at altar)[/center]
[center]Public Church[/center]

I really like this setup, but I have seen the far more common Public Church where nuns are in hidden side choir and face the altar sideways. The Arlington Carmelites slant the altar so that both the nuns and the public see it as being just a little tilted. I thought that was nice!

THANKS AGAIN PAX FOR THE PICTURES!
[/quote]

That's a really interesting set up. So can you see the nuns from the public church? At St. Cecilia's you see the church as you enter the choir because the door is right up next to the grille, but the choir is so large that you can't see the church once you're at your stall. Which is quite nice when you get people that stare through the grille at you.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1345318612' post='2469773']
That's a really interesting set up. So can you see the nuns from the public church? At St. Cecilia's you see the church as you enter the choir because the door is right up next to the grille, but the choir is so large that you can't see the church once you're at your stall. Which is quite nice when you get people that stare through the grille at you.
[/quote]
The public cannot see the nuns, because the altar area is elevated a couple feet and the grill begins on top of a wall that goes over my head-maybe ten feet up from the ground, but it is short enough so the nuns can see the upper half of the priest when he celebrates Mass on the elevated altar area.
[url="http://www.poorclaresroswell.com/PoorClareslinedpraying.jpg"][img]http://www.poorclaresroswell.com/PoorClareslinedpraying.jpg[/img][/url][img]http://www.poorclaresroswell.com/numbeforealter.jpg[/img]

There are double wooden doors cute horizontal as well:
[img]http://www.poorclaresroswell.com/PCC3.jpg[/img][img]http://www.poorclaresroswell.com/PCC1.jpg[/img]

These doors are where the nuns receive communion, so you can see their faces then.

That IS nice about St Cecilia's...I have always thought that it would be a pain to be praying and out of your periphery seeing the public examining you! I really like the St Cecilia's stalls. They have a really lovely site!

Edited August 18, 2012 by emmaberry

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1345327130' post='2469822']
The public cannot see the nuns, because the altar area is elevated a couple feet and the grill begins on top of a wall that goes over my head-maybe ten feet up from the ground, but it is short enough so the nuns can see the upper half of the priest when he celebrates Mass on the elevated altar area.

There are double wooden doors cute horizontal as well:

These doors are where the nuns receive communion, so you can see their faces then.

That IS nice about St Cecilia's...I have always thought that it would be a pain to be praying and out of your periphery seeing the public examining you! I really like the St Cecilia's stalls. They have a really lovely site!
[/quote]

Their grille is just beautiful. So can the nuns see the public? I'm guessing not if it's all elevated like you describe. Am I right that the grille seems to come kind of half-way through the altar?

At St. Cecilia's the grille is opened up during Mass like this:

[img]http://www.oxfordoratory.org.uk/images/news/1326745673.jpg[/img]

The priest comes to the edge of the enclosure to give us Communion. So the public can see you then, but not during the Office or for the rest of the Mass. Most of the public watch as we process in but not in a creepy way, though there is the odd person (who I'm sure is well intentioned) who just sort of stares. Which I can understand, people are curious, but from the other side it can be strange.

Whoever did their site did a great job. It's so funny looking at it now though and thinking that I've met the sisters and I can go "that's Mother Mistress and that's Sr MG and that's Sr MTe as a postulant!" I love that Sr. MTe is still a postulant in the pictures, she's just made her first vows so it's really nice to know how much she's progressed.

I think the stalls are based on those at Ste. Cecile in Solesmes. They're a pain to dust though, it takes forever and I kept slamming my fingers. The abbey was built around an existing manor house, and was designed in the style of St. Cecile - one of the juniors described it to me as a "smaller, cheaper, Ste. Cecile."

[emmaberry]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1345328825' post='2469832']
Their grille is just beautiful. So can the nuns see the public? I'm guessing not if it's all elevated like you describe. Am I right that the grille seems to come kind of half-way through the altar?

At St. Cecilia's the grille is opened up during Mass like this:

[img]http://www.oxfordoratory.org.uk/images/news/1326745673.jpg[/img]

The priest comes to the edge of the enclosure to give us Communion. So the public can see you then, but not during the Office or for the rest of the Mass. Most of the public watch as we process in but not in a creepy way, though there is the odd person (who I'm sure is well intentioned) who just sort of stares. Which I can understand, people are curious, but from the other side it can be strange.

Whoever did their site did a great job. It's so funny looking at it now though and thinking that I've met the sisters and I can go "that's Mother Mistress and that's Sr MG and that's Sr MTe as a postulant!" I love that Sr. MTe is still a postulant in the pictures, she's just made her first vows so it's really nice to know how much she's progressed.

I think the stalls are based on those at Ste. Cecile in Solesmes. They're a pain to dust though, it takes forever and I kept slamming my fingers. The abbey was built around an existing manor house, and was designed in the style of St. Cecile - one of the juniors described it to me as a "smaller, cheaper, Ste. Cecile."
[/quote]
That's great that most people are used to the nuns, so to speak, and don't stare in an uncomfortable way. I do feel sorry for the odd 'starer' because I went to Mass at the Arlington Carmel once and I admit, when I went up for communion I was THAT person, craning my neck, eyes just locked on the poor nuns. I am sure they were glad to see me go!

Their site is great! It is what really drew me in to learn more about Benedictine life. I think it has a good Benedictine 'aura', if that makes sense. That must be so crazy to know the sisters from the sites-almost like meeting a celebrity for us discerners!! I remember searching the wimpled faces of the PCC nuns when they came up for Communion trying to match their faces to the young girls I had seen on the site.

How did you slam your fingers in the stalls? Do they have compartments? I thought it was just a wooden slab on each side of the nun to enclose her in. I have never seen any stalls in person though! I can't imagine Ste. Cecile's...St Cecilia's seems so magnificent from the site!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1345314047' post='2469750']I really like this setup, but I have seen the far more common Public Church where nuns are in hidden side choir and face the altar sideways.[/quote]
Yes, the majority of the monasteries (Carmel and PCs) I know of have it this way.

Palos Park is just like Roswell, [url="http://www.chicagopoorclares.org/"]http://www.chicagopoorclares.org/[/url] [url="http://www.rockfordpoorclares.org/"]Rockford[/url] and [url="http://poorclaresjoliet.org/"]Minooka[/url] both have two choirs like these Poor Sisters of St. Clare .. one on the side for Holy Mass, and one directly behind the altar for the Divine Office (and adoration, etc.) St. Louis has one choir on the side for everything.

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PCj-31hPIyw/T_NHOON7ZPI/AAAAAAAAA1M/3YgWzA2x-jY/s1600/rockford_cloister_summercamp2012.jpg[/img]

Rockford (nuns' choir on left side of altar)

[img]http://www.rockfordpoorclares.org/images/page-2_10.jpg[/img]

Rockford, Nuns' choir for Mass

[img]http://web.archive.org/web/20051217175104im_/http://poorclare.org/rockford/images/prayer2.jpg[/img] <-- arg picture won't work, it's [url="http://web.archive.org/web/20050226093742/http://poorclare.org/rockford/prayer2.html"]here[/url]

Nuns' choir for the Office and adoration, got the picture from their [url="http://web.archive.org/web/20050217235219/http://poorclare.org/rockford/"]old site[/url] which I like better. Sometimes they have adoration for both the nuns and the public and put a monstrance up on the altar which both sides can see. Other times like here they have private adoration in the nuns' choir.

I heard once that there was some rule, not sure where we'd find it (Sr. Mary Catharine! ) that didn't allow cloistered nuns to see the Mass. But then it was allowed, and so cloisters that had the choir directly behind the altar often remodeled a side room, often a small sacristy, where the nuns could gather for Mass. The cloisters which had the choir on the side would just open the curtain for Mass. I heard this actually from the Novice Mistress in Valpariaso regarding why Elysburg had two choirs.. different than just the side one in Valparaiso. The two choirs in Elysburg, [url="https://picasaweb.google.com/112954809546652959393/CarmelOfJesusMaryJosephElysburgPA#5409364467727717874"]here[/url] [edit: Bishop Rhoades presided at that enclosure ceremony too :)] & [url="https://picasaweb.google.com/112954809546652959393/CarmelOfJesusMaryJosephElysburgPA#5409394410723802050"]here[/url].

And I have noticed that all the US Spanish Carmels (besides Elysburg, which was originally French) have just the one side choir, whereas a number of the French ones have it behind the altar and on the side now.. though I can think of a number of exceptions to that, like Arlington as Emma described here, or Erie.. Rochester, Lake Elmo.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[Pax_et bonum]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1345300089' post='2469693']
Ah okay. I guess that grille must have an opening or something for them to receive Communion?
[/quote]
If you look at the [url="http://franciscanbrothersminor.com/FBM/2012/Pages/The_Grill_Arrives.html"]pictures from when they were putting in the grille[/url], you can see the little place where it opens. They kneel at the opening to receive the Eucharist. Something that isn't up in these pictures but you can see in the slideshows is the thin white curtain hung on the grille. It's lifted at some part of the Mass, possibly the gospel, and then is left up for the Liturgy of the Eucharist. That's my understanding; I haven't seen it in action yet. St. Clare had curtains in San Damiano on the grilles in the church and the parlor so the Poor Sisters of Saint Clare have them too. That may help with ogling because some pews have a pretty good view of the sisters.

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1345343577' post='2469953']
That's great that most people are used to the nuns, so to speak, and don't stare in an uncomfortable way. I do feel sorry for the odd 'starer' because I went to Mass at the Arlington Carmel once and I admit, when I went up for communion I was THAT person, craning my neck, eyes just locked on the poor nuns. I am sure they were glad to see me go!

Their site is great! It is what really drew me in to learn more about Benedictine life. I think it has a good Benedictine 'aura', if that makes sense. That must be so crazy to know the sisters from the sites-almost like meeting a celebrity for us discerners!! I remember searching the wimpled faces of the PCC nuns when they came up for Communion trying to match their faces to the young girls I had seen on the site.

How did you slam your fingers in the stalls? Do they have compartments? I thought it was just a wooden slab on each side of the nun to enclose her in. I have never seen any stalls in person though! I can't imagine Ste. Cecile's...St Cecilia's seems so magnificent from the site!
[/quote]

The seats sort of fold up. When the seats are down it's just a normal flat seat. You can just about see in this picture what they look like folded up:

[img]http://iow-chs.org/gallery/2/photos/3.jpg[/img]

For most of the Office you keep them folded up. It's not as uncomfortable as it looks! You can see at the front what they look like when they're folded down. So to clean them you have to go round putting them all down and them folding them all back up again.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1345367794' post='2470083']
The seats sort of fold up. When the seats are down it's just a normal flat seat. You can just about see in this picture what they look like folded up:

[img]http://iow-chs.org/gallery/2/photos/3.jpg[/img]

For most of the Office you keep them folded up. It's not as uncomfortable as it looks! You can see at the front what they look like when they're folded down. So to clean them you have to go round putting them all down and them folding them all back up again.
[/quote]

That choir reminds me so much of the choir in "The Nun's Story". I just remember rows of prayer stalls like that.

[DameAgnes]

One upon a time all of those stalls were filled. We must pray to fill them again.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1345367794' post='2470083']
The seats sort of fold up. When the seats are down it's just a normal flat seat. You can just about see in this picture what they look like folded up:

[img]http://iow-chs.org/gallery/2/photos/3.jpg[/img]

For most of the Office you keep them folded up. It's not as uncomfortable as it looks! You can see at the front what they look like when they're folded down. So to clean them you have to go round putting them all down and them folding them all back up again.
[/quote]

I can understand how your fingers might get slammed! That would be a LOT of stalls to dust. The Church is just beautiful, though.

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1345407175' post='2470227']
I can understand how your fingers might get slammed! That would be a LOT of stalls to dust. The Church is just beautiful, though.
[/quote]

It is a lot. I counted them one day and it's like 80 or something. Even with around 30 sisters there's plenty of room to spare! I wonder if the original Ste. Cecile nuns needed them all or if they left extra space to grow.

It's actually a lot bigger than it looks in the picture - that's only about half the stalls. And it is beautiful, I love it. You can't see in that picture, but the brick has this sort of pinky-greeny effect mixed in with the yellow and it looks just lovely with the stained glass.

Edited because I can't spell.

Edited August 19, 2012 by EmilyAnn