missionseeker Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Marty Haugen and David Hass are song writers for GIA and OCP. the are responsible for gems like [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDljPsRIryo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDljPsRIryo[/url] and [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Pk2NHKg_o&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Pk2NHKg_o&feature=related[/url]and this [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQKeBylep7Y&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQKeBylep7Y&feature=related[/url] and worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 ALSO, I'm a huge fan of popular music, I'd say it's a pretty substantial part of my life and goes beyond mere entertainment. I connect with it, and it helps me think and develop as a person. I used to think people were a bunch of stiffs for not allowing it in church. I'd say it's more of a misunderstanding about what Mass is supposed to be (as everyone has pretty much already said). Liturgical music is not an attack on popular/folk culture, and perhaps some people perceive these arguments. Or maybe not idk, but I think that's what I used to think. Nor does sacred music preclude the use of popular music to "reach the kids," but the Mass is not the place to do this. I'm really tired so this is more of a half-baked reiteration of what people have been saying. My bad. But at least you get to see my beautiful avatar again. Count your blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) missionseeker, I hate to be obtuse, but what EXACTLY makes these terrible. I mean it may seem quite ovbious to everyone, but I'd like specifics. Feel free to use geeky musical/lyrical terminology. I'm not trying to be contentious just simply trying to edumacate myself a bit. ETA: I mean I know from listening to it like, once, that it's terrible, I guess I'm looking for technicalities. Sometimes my parish will play songs and I see that little OCP copyright, but it never sounds this musically ridiculous. And sometimes the lyrix are a bit iffy but I'm no expert. I guess I also just want to know, how can I tell (what things can I look for, other than the blatant travesties you posted) if the music at my parish is quality or not. I think it's not bad as far as what is allowed. We used to have lifeteen p&w songz, but the priest there put a stop to that, thank you Jesus. aslo ETA: This muzak is srs bad. Dear God, I don't know whether to laugh or gag. Edited August 13, 2012 by Ice_nine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1344836953' post='2466771'] missionseeker, I hate to be obtuse, but what EXACTLY makes these terrible. I mean it may seem quite ovbious to everyone, but I'd like specifics. Feel free to use geeky musical/lyrical terminology. I'm not trying to be contentious just simply trying to edumacate myself a bit. [/quote]. To borrow from CS Lewis, it's "sixth rate poetry set to fifth rate music" The lyrics themselves are not edifying. Sometimes they are plain heretical (and I really don't know about the ones I posted but I can give you instances tomorrow if you'd like). The music, while catchy, has no real substance and they usually write their music towards the higher side and with syncopation and irregular rhythms which can make for difficult congregational singing. Does that help? I switched to my phone so won't be able to do much tonight, but explain more if you'd like tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1344837550' post='2466774'] . To borrow from CS Lewis, it's "sixth rate poetry set to fifth rate music" The lyrics themselves are not edifying. Sometimes they are plain heretical (and I really don't know about the ones I posted but I can give you instances tomorrow if you'd like). The music, while catchy, has no real substance and they usually write their music towards the higher side and with syncopation and irregular rhythms which can make for difficult congregational singing. Does that help? I switched to my phone so won't be able to do much tonight, but explain more if you'd like tomorrow [/quote] Yes it is helpful. If you'd like to explain more another day tho I'm all ears (or eyes). Gracias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Should the Mass/Liturgy be designed to appeal/speak to a specific demographic? I believe not. The Mass/Liturgy need not be modernized to include pop culture's bells and whistles. The Mass/Liturgy should universal and timeless. I personally find it very hard to be reverent and humble while attending LT mass or the like with all the guitars, drums, cymbals, trumpets, etc along with the P&W songs blasting in my ear while people are swaying back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaPetiteSoeur Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 In my experience LifeTeen is either really good or really, really, really bad. One of the Masses I went to used "regular" music, but the homily was more for teenagers (about living for Christ, not losing faith, etc), and afterwards there was fellowship and a youth group type meeting. It was for all of the teens in my diocese, so it was a way to unite them (there are five catholic high schools, so we needed all the uniting we could get!) and meet other Catholics. There was no swaying. Another one was really wonderful; although the music was not my favorite, there was a huge program on missionaries in the Church and the global Catholic faith community afterward. The two main speakers were both missionaries in the area where the Tsunami hit. One was a religious sister and the other was a priest who had been an actor (so that definitely gave the guys something to think about). There was also no swaying, and it was still reverent, even though there were guitars with the piano. Another was really, really, really bad. The music was atrocious, the ministry afterward did not serve its purpose, and no uniting occurred. It really depends on who runs the program, how involved the pastor is, and the music ministry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1344869951' post='2466878'] It really depends on who runs the program, how involved the pastor is, and the music ministry. [/quote] If memory serves from the other Lifeteen threads and what they boiled down to, this is hitting the nail on the head of how to run Lifeteen correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 It should be clear - my beef is not with Lifeteen, or having homilies aimed at youth, or doing youth-aimed adoration, or whatever else it is that Lifeteen does. It's about having inappropriate music in the liturgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1344835219' post='2466750'] *snips huge long epic post*[/quote] That is what this thread has been missing. I've been getting progressively crankier as I read (and part of it is my own fault for being unwilling to bring it up) that people have been dogpiling documents like mad in copy and pasting frenzies, but no one really gave an in depth explanation of why those documents were important. That was both charitable and went out of the way to explain why all the documents that have been posted have been important. I mean this as nicely as I can, but USAirways style has been getting under my skin as document dumping and essentially proclaiming "I'm right, you're wrong, get on board my train or else". My biggest problem in threads such as this one is myself, because while I agree with what's being said primarily, I feel that the focus on documents exclusively isn't going to help anyone without adequate explanation. And instead of saying as much, I become catty and passive aggressive, and I apologize to those I have been that way to. I know I have a board in my eye, but in debates such as this one it becomes all to easy for me to forget that as I find myself watching what sometimes appears to be the legalism that many non-Catholics have such an issue with the Church over. Edit: [quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1344836503' post='2466766'] Marty Haugen and David Hass are song writers for GIA and OCP. the are responsible for gems like [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDljPsRIryo[/media] and worse. [/quote] Okay I didn't notice what the vid was until just now...but I...loathe...that...song...I'm sorry. But if I have to sing that again it will be far too soon...and when people start clapping during the final verse. Gah! Father, right after he transferred here, realized people clap in our parish at the final verse, and I swear he cuts his prayers short at the foot of the altar just to try and have the procession beat the choir to the clapping so it won't happen. Edited August 13, 2012 by BG45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1344876653' post='2466962'] I mean this as nicely as I can, but USAirways style has been getting under my skin as document dumping and essentially proclaiming "I'm right, you're wrong, get on board my train or else". [/quote] I don't know much about the majority of areas of Church teaching. I know enough to get by in the areas of morality, I know pretty much nothing about Canon Law, I have a little-more-than superficial understanding of Theology, but one thing that I really do know about is sacred music. If it comes off as being "I'm right, you're wrong, get on board my train or else", that's because I am right. It may seem prideful, but I have spent many hours of my life studying music and how it relates to the Liturgy and what the Church says about it and the history of music both within and outside of the Church and her liturgy and so on and so forth. The documents that I have laid out here time and time again very clearly prohibit praise and worship music. Pianos, drums, and "frivolous instruments" are [u]prohibited[/u] in Mass. It's really funny...it's as though people here think I'm in favor of "traditional" sacred music in Mass because I like traditional music. I do like it, but that's not why I'm in favor of it. What follows are two very disparate musical styles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7CWwgt_2IM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y284YvkYrZo Both of these pieces of music resonate within me. They are very edifying to me, and move me whenever I listen to them. However, they are not in line with our Catholic musical heritage and are wholly unfit for the liturgy. There are 167 hours in a week when you can listen to whatever you like, whatever speaks to you, whatever revs you up, but for that other hour, the Church has control over what is and is not appropriate, and the two songs above, along with many other styles (indeed, the majority of all styles of music) are not acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I like that post too. And what I meant by the right/wrong/get on the train is that it comes off that way, but when you explain it in context, it comes off as something different in tone (at least to me). Though I realize "tone" is relative when we're all online and communicating via text. (That was one thing at the Meetup that came up actually, things were so weird and more organic in person with some beer compared to text.) You laid out what you know, how you know it, and come off as very knowledgable about your subject matter without quoting a document, but when looking at the documents, I personally think it adds a new dimension to it. And prohibited or not, sadly, people still use them. I'd think it would be hard to find a parish that doesn't use frivolous instruments and please don't think I'm trying to defend it by essentially saying "Well everyone does it, so it's fine". The only Mass I've been to that didn't was a Traditional Latin Mass that was all chant and organ; actually as I sit here and reflect, that's the only time since my conversion that I have heard an organ in a Catholic parish. Which is weird, since the "traditional" service at my old Baptist church uses it every Sunday. (Sorry went off on a bit of a "hmm that's weird" tangent there.) Both those videos are edifying to myself also, but as you said, not worthy of Mass. I don't disagree with you on the Church controlling what we listen to, and as I spazzed against "We Are Called" above, I'd agree with statements in this thread that some of the music we use isn't really appropriate. Personally, I don't know where it would fit under canon law and such (though you probably do), I hate having to sing music where I'm singing as if I'm Christ. Christ is present in the Mass and I am not He. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1344878955' post='2466979'] Personally, I don't know where it would fit under canon law and such (though you probably do), I hate having to sing music where I'm singing as if I'm Christ. Christ is present in the Mass and I am not He. [/quote] Yes, that's why I hate all anthropocentric songs (they're not hymns, hymns are addressed to God or other beings who are not us (e.g., the BVM, saints, etc)), like Here I am, Lord, I am the Bread of Life, etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I think missionseeker and I disagree 95% of the time (and that's being generous!), but she gets from me for this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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