Amppax Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 This discussion does tend to go in circles, doesn't it? Btw Slappo, do you know who the new RD of Trinity is? One of your recently graduated HH brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344668207' post='2465957'] This discussion does tend to go in circles, doesn't it? [/quote] Like every discussion on phatmass, just about. Cause some are satisfied with the answer and some are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1344660824' post='2465917'] I think the crux of my misunderstanding is that I don't see an error in not fulfilling the ideal for liturgical music. Besides that, not following liturgical guidelines or whatever is not even considered a sin. And all these 'facts' are given over to me and others, who have little background in theology/basic understanding of Catholic liturgical writing and thus must trust what the rest of the 'scholars' on here have to, which (and I shall say bluntly) is extremely one-sided. [/quote] It's very simple, really. Yes, chant is the "ideal". No American Parish is going to have an all chant liturgy any time soon. I don't think anybody expects that. However, there are some things that really are quite plain: [quote][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman', Times, Arial][size=1]19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font=Times][size=1] [font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"]20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color] [/quote] There's nothing here about ideal or in a perfect world or anything like that. It spells out that drums, cymbals, bells, pianos, and bands are [b]forbidden [/b]in the liturgy. I don't see how anybody could possibly read ambiguity into that. You're right though, it's probably not a sin to use a piano in mass. Of course, clown masses probably aren't sinful either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344693991' post='2466015'] You're right though, it's probably not a sin to use a piano in mass. Of course, clown masses probably aren't sinful either. [/quote] Because, of course those two contain the same gravity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1344665945' post='2465944'] Never mind... not worth continuing. Just go re-read some of the other 30 page threads. [/quote] Yeah. Cause phatmassers totally know more and know BETTER than the Church. The fact that phatmassers keep going in circles is a good sign we don't have the expertise to make judgments on the same level that bishops have already made judgments for their parishes and dioceses. And I will go to a charismatic Mass in a heartbeat before I attend 99% of our parishes and their completely banal liturgy and liturgical music. It's like this on the hierarchy yo: Chant - - - - Polyphony - - - Other suitable hymns - - - - - - - - Reverent Praise & Worship - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Haugen/Haas/and the rest of the garbage most of our parishes play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1344660824' post='2465917'] I think the crux of my misunderstanding is that I don't see an error in not fulfilling the ideal for liturgical music. Besides that, not following liturgical guidelines or whatever is not even considered a sin. And all these 'facts' are given over to me and others, who have little background in theology/basic understanding of Catholic liturgical writing and thus must trust what the rest of the 'scholars' on here have to, which (and I shall say bluntly) is extremely one-sided. [/quote] Why would you NOT want to fulfil an ideal? If something is ideal, it means it's the best thing for the job, so why would you want anything else? Why settle for anything less than the ideal, especially when it comes to worshipping God. Basically what you're saying is that any old thing will do. No. Not for God. For God, we should give everything. The Church says Gregorian chant is that ideal, and I'm sorry to break it to you, but you don't get to decide otherwise. This is a bit like the teenage couple that ask 'how far' they can go physically, without sinning. Edited August 11, 2012 by Noel's angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1344723083' post='2466230'] Why would you NOT want to fulfil an ideal? If something is ideal, it means it's the best thing for the job, so why would you want anything else? Why settle for anything less than the ideal, especially when it comes to worshipping God. Basically what you're saying is that any old thing will do. No. Not for God. For God, we should give everything. The Church says Gregorian chant is that ideal, and I'm sorry to break it to you, but you don't get to decide otherwise. This is a bit like the teenage couple that ask 'how far' they can go physically, without sinning. [/quote] You're assuming that God is only happy with our attempts to give 'everything'. I won't assume what God wants exactly from us except His Love. And given my own experience our Father is happy with any attempt as long as we are striving for Him. Sure, some of our attempts may be worse or better than others, but in the end His Love remains the same while ours hopefully grows for Him. Sure, Gregorian chant may be the ideal, but if no one can sing worth a beaver dam then grab the guy who can play acoustic guitar well [i]and[/i] prayerfully then shoot get him at Mass! That way the music is actually praising the Father even more gloriously than what could have been done by people whose voices sound like the dead. And your attempted comparison smells of elderberries. Edited August 12, 2012 by ThePenciledOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1344731700' post='2466287']That way the music is actually praising the Father even more gloriously than what could have been done by people whose voices sound like the dead. [/quote] Because God definitely cares more about being entertained than in the efforts made to please him. Certainly things that are unpleasant and difficult are [i]more [/i]edifying, not less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344742655' post='2466357'] Because God definitely cares more about being entertained than in the efforts made to please him. Certainly things that are unpleasant and difficult are [i]more [/i]edifying, not less? [/quote] Where was entertaining? I didn't say that. Sure mortification glorifies Him further, but in the Mass I would assume music that is done properly and well would glorify Him far better than music that can only be done only so-so or even horribly. But these things aside are we really going to degenerate into a conversation that is: What/which is holier? That's just asinine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1344743503' post='2466365'] But these things aside are we really going to degenerate into a conversation that is: What/which is holier? That's just asinine. [/quote] But not improbably based on previous debates unfortunately. I've never been to a Lifeteen Mass, so sadly I can't contribute much more to the thread. I will say though, that the most beautiful Mass I've ever been to didn't have the "appropriate" musical accompaniment, but did have 50 people whose hearts were truly focusing on Jesus Christ and were there not out of an obligation, but out of love for Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344742655' post='2466357'] Because God definitely cares more about being entertained than in the efforts made to please him. Certainly things that are unpleasant and difficult are [i]more [/i]edifying, not less? [/quote] This is what I have a problem with. Because it assumes that people aren't making an effort to please him. I honestly don't have a fully formed opinion one way or the other at this point, but to judge the disposition of all that do things differently than you like this is rather poor form, imo. I mean, here in Steubenville, music is a contentious issue. You have all positions on this debate represented, but the one constant that all are trying, to the best of their ability, to glorify God. Whether or not you agree that they are doing it well is where discussion comes in. But what we're doing here is unproductive, and quite frankly, unhelpful to everyone. You walk away more convinced that you're right, while TPO walks away more repulsed by your position. Not really sure why we have this discussion if everyone is going to say the exact same things in the exact same ways EVERY TIME this is talked about. Also, you're better than that clown mass comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344444464' post='2464537'] I don't care much for the Classical (nor the Romantic, which Beethoven straddled the line of), but there are indeed pieces of other-wordly beauty that are hidden away in favor of [i]The Monkees do The Mass. [/i]Issues with Beethoven and Mozarts masses, though, is that they're not easy music, and to be performed well, require instrumentalists of a calibre and number which probably no parish in the US has (or can afford to hire even once a year). Much of the more ancient music, though (like Palestrina), is doable by a fair-to-middling choir if they bother to put in the work. [/quote] I have to disagree with you. There are plenty of parishes that do have very good music programs (for lack of a better word. ) in Pensacola there is a church with an orchestra and choir who do similar Masses regularly. Cathedrals, too. I dont think that a reduced orchestra necessarily means it is less beautiful and it makes such music possible without 100 musicians. Granted, these parishes are normally found in larger cities or wealthy areas but they do exist. I almost had a job singing at one. (it would have required moving to DC at 17, though. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1344743960' post='2466368'] I will say though, that the most beautiful Mass I've ever been to didn't have the "appropriate" musical accompaniment, [b]but did have 50 people whose hearts were truly focusing on Jesus Christ and were there not out of an obligation, but out of love for Him.[/b] [/quote] That's what matters. While, the details are necessary and whatever, the above is what really matters. Praise Him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='rayala' timestamp='1344470028' post='2464725'] Thank you all for your input. I would also like to clear up that it wasn't a rock concert nor did it feel like it. I just want to know if it's compatiable with what our Church teaches on music in the mass....For me, it didn't. [/quote] It's most definitely not. Usairways posted some good links for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344744163' post='2466369'] This is what I have a problem with. Because it assumes that people aren't making an effort to please him. I honestly don't have a fully formed opinion one way or the other at this point, but to judge the disposition of all that do things differently than you like this is rather poor form, imo. I mean, here in Steubenville, music is a contentious issue. You have all positions on this debate represented, but the one constant that all are trying, to the best of their ability, to glorify God. Whether or not you agree that they are doing it well is where discussion comes in. But what we're doing here is unproductive, and quite frankly, unhelpful to everyone. You walk away more convinced that you're right, while TPO walks away more repulsed by your position. Not really sure why we have this discussion if everyone is going to say the exact same things in the exact same ways EVERY TIME this is talked about. Also, you're better than that clown mass comment. [/quote] I stand by all of my comments. His justification that praise and worship should be allowed is that we don't want people singing difficult or different music out of fear of sounding ugly. I quoted the relevant portions of his post, if you're curious where I got that. The clown mass comparison is a valid point, too. Just because something isn't sinful doesn't mean it's what we should be doing. I have posted nothing but what the Church says on this issue. If you can do Praise and Worship without pianos, drums, and/or bands, then yes, I might see an allowance for that. Otherwise, I fail to see how this issue is anything but open and shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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