Theories On Unity

[dUSt]

[quote]so while you say I am part of the church, I'm not an official member...does this mean I'm saved according to the Catholic Church?  or that I MIGHT be saved?[/quote]
It means you [b]might[/b] be saved, but since the Church can't read your heart it cannot say that "you will go to hell". Only God knows that. What the Church [b]can[/b] tell you is how to get to Heavan. And yes, believe it or not, the Church teaches that the only way to Heaven is through Christ.

[quote]and in saying that if you die without Christ, I am saying exactly that.  what I have read is that unless you are a part of the Catholic Church, you will go to hell...Christ or not.[/quote]
We define the Church as the body of Christ--so in that regard, you agree with Church teaching, because you yourself said that without Christ there is no salvation--and how can you be of Christ without being part of His body?

So, like it or not, if you believe in Christ, you are part of His Church. Although, if you reject the truth found in His Church (His body), then you are rejecting Him.

And there are many other rites with the Church than the Roman rite, so when you state things such as, only the "Catholic Church" will go to heaven, this isn't correct Church teaching to begin with.

[quote]this is why I say what I say...I say without Christ you go to hell, I've read from catholics here that without the Catholic Church you go to hell...thats all.[/quote]
If you define the Church correctly, that is [b]the Body of Christ[/b] we are saying the same thing. You act as if Catholics don't believe that the Church and Christ are united. It goes hand in hand for a Catholic--to accept His Church is to accept Christ himself. It's impossible to accept His Church without accepting Him, and vice versa. We believe in one body.

[quote]Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, and I won't have any part in resacrificing Him over and over and over... [/quote]
This has been pointed out to you many, many times. I have a hard time accepting the fact that you don't understand it--so I'm assuming you are intentionally misrepresenting Catholic theology--for what reason? I don't know. That's on you... But I will explain it one more time, for the benefit of the reader.

[b]We do not re-sacrifice Christ over and over again. Nowhere in Catholic theology or doctrine will you find this. This is a distorted, personal misinterpretation.[/b]

Consider this your final warning on this subject. The next time you misrepresent this teaching, I will consider it intentional slander against the Church. If you [b]insist[/b] on continuing to call it a re-sacrifice, back it up with Catholic doctrine.

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 19 2004, 02:20 PM'] so lets say I do learn a lot about the Catholic Church...does this then mean that I will go to hell? or does my apparent obstinance (sp? ) mean that I'm too dumb for my own good, and that I will go to heaven? [/quote]
If you learn a lot about the Church, and reject the truth found in it, then you are severely hindering your path to salvation. [b]It's about following Christ.[/b] Christ will lead you to His body, but you must be willing to accept Him--and not be bound by pride, culture, social settings, etc.

If you are truly dumb, then you'll probably go to heaven. I doubt many people qualify for this though. It's hard to be dumb when it comes to following Christ, because the mind naturally ascends to the truth. It is our flesh that get's in the way.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 02:30 PM']
a lot of those churches are catholic only by name...

I was raised a good portion of my childhood in Mexico, and right across the street from my grandmother's house is a catholic church...and man...I don't think I ever heard Christ mentioned once the number of times I went.

it was ALL the virgen of guadlupe and juan diego and this idol and the other...NEVER CHRIST...ever.[/quote]
Lumberjack,

The instant discussion began with your claim that "Christ is never mentioned in some Catholic Churches," and your slam about idol worship against Mexican Catholics, which I presume is intended as a slam against all Catholics, since we all honor the saints of God.

Several Catholics on the phatmass phorum have explained to you that that is an impossibility. I specifically explained that the Mass, which is the center of worship in every Catholic Church in the world, is a re-presentation of the Sacrifice of Calvary. So we ask, how can any Catholic Church not be Christ centered?

If you do not wish to discuss the Eucharist, you're in the wrong place. The Eucharist is the pinnacle of the teaching of Christ, and therefore is the source and summit of the Catholic Faith. Catholicism is Christ centered. The Eucharist is Christ Himself. It is during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that the Eucharist is confected.

Perhaps like St. Paul, who persecuted the Church, you will one day have your own "Road to Damascus" experience. I did -- and I humbly admit with tears in my eyes and heart that I, too, persecuted the Church founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of the world! May God have mercy.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[the lumberjack]

[quote]It means you [b]might[/b] be saved, but since the Church can't read your heart it cannot say that "you will go to hell". Only God knows that. What the Church [b]can[/b] tell you is how to get to Heavan. And yes, believe it or not, the Church teaches that the only way to Heaven is through Christ.[/quote]

don't worry about reading my heart , the Lord knows it and knows that I only seek to serve and live for Him.

[quote]We define the Church as the body of Christ--so in that regard, you agree with Church teaching, because you yourself said that without Christ there is no salvation--and how can you be of Christ without being part of His body?[/quote]

amen...we all have a purpose in the body...

[quote]So, like it or not, if you believe in Christ, you are part of His Church. Although, if you reject the truth found in His Church (His body), then you are rejecting Him.[/quote]

I know I'm a part of Christ's church...but I will never be subject to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church or its leadership...unless I've seen them to be strong, faithful men of God. as long as you can deal with that, we're both golden.

[quote]If you define the Church correctly, that is [b]the Body of Christ[/b] we are saying the same thing. You act as if Catholics don't believe that the Church and Christ are united. It goes hand in hand for a Catholic--to accept His Church is to accept Christ himself. It's impossible to accept His Church without accepting Him, and vice versa. We believe in one body.[/quote]

Would you have to accept it even if the church, from the top, down, were filled with liars hypocrites and thieves? double tongued serpents? Would you continue in the Catholic Church if you KNEW that it were filled with evil men? I'm not saying it is, so don't think I am...I'm just asking, would you still stick around if the church were FILLED with evil men?

I KNOW its a big IF, but please, just answer...


[quote]This has been pointed out to you many, many times. I have a hard time accepting the fact that you don't understand it--[/quote]

so I'm dumb...sue me!

[quote]Consider this your final warning on this subject. The next time you misrepresent this teaching, I will consider it intentional slander against the Church. If you insist on continuing to call it a re-sacrifice, back it up with Catholic doctrine.[/quote]

fine, dust, warn me, ban me, tar me, feather me....do what you feel necessary... until I FULLY understand what you mean in the host, I will continue to represent it the way I do... and another thing, if I knew exactly what solid catholic doctrine was, I'm sure I could point it out more clearly. but there are many things which you don't HAVE to do or believe...and thats what I don't get also.

its church dogma but not doctrine, its a teaching of the church, but its not doctrine...then what exactly is doctrine? its constantly being developed ...thats all I know.

God bless.

Christ first and only.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 19 2004, 03:49 PM']

its church dogma but not doctrine, its a teaching of the church, but its not doctrine...then what exactly is doctrine? its constantly being developed ...thats all I know.

[/quote]

[b]DOCTRINE:[/b] Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful. The truth may be either formally revealed (as the Real Presence), or a theological conclusion (as the canonization of a saint), or part of the natural law (as the sinfulness of contraception). In any case, what makes it doctrine is that the Church authority teaches that it is to be believed. This teaching may be done either solemnly in [i]ex cathedra[/i] pronouncements or ordinarily in the perennial exercise of the Church's magisterium or teaching authority.

[b]DOGMA:[/b] Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation. All dogmas, therefore, are formally revealed truths and promulgated as such by the Church. They are revealed either in Scripture or tradition, either explicitly (as in the Incarnation) or implicitly (as the Assumption). Moreover, their acceptance by the faithful must be proposed as necessary for salvation. They may be taught by the Church in a solemn manner, as with the definition of the Immaculate Conception, or in an ordinary way, as with the constant teaching on the malice of taking innocent human life. (Etym. Latin [i]dogma[/i], from Greek [i]dogma,[/i] declaration, decree.)


[b]DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE:[/b] Growth in the Church's understanding of the truths of divine revelation...It is the gradual unfolding of the meaning of what
God has revealed. Always presumed is that the substantial truth of a revealed mystery remains unchanged. What changes is the subjective grasp of the revealed truth.

The source of this progressive understanding is the prayerful reflection of the faithful, notably of the Church's saints and mystics; the study and research by scholars and theologians; the practical experience of the living faith among the faithful; and the collective wisdom and teaching of the Church's hierarchy under the Bishop of Rome.

Implicit in the development of doctrine is the will of God that the faithful not only assent to what He revealed but also grow in the depth, clarity, and certitude of their appropriation of divine faith.

John A. Hardon, S.J., [i]Modern Catholic Dictionary[/i]

The Church's doctrines (dogma is a specific kind of doctrine) were revealed by God in Christ and were once for all delivered to the Church by the Apostles (Jude 3). The Church teaches what the Apostles taught.

[dUSt]

[quote]Would you have to accept it even if the church, from the top, down, were filled with liars hypocrites and thieves?  double tongued serpents?  Would you continue in the Catholic Church if you KNEW that it were filled with evil men?  I'm not saying it is, so don't think I am...I'm just asking, would you still stick around if the church were FILLED with evil men?[/quote]
Yes. The Church is filled with evil men. It has been in the past, it will continue to be in the future. I'm evil as well. We are in a constant struggle between good and evil. The Church is a hospitable for sinners. That's why we [b]need[/b] Christ. [b]Christ is our only hope for salvation.[/b] This is what the Church teaches me.

[quote]Christ first and only.[/quote]
Christ first, yes... but only? Did not Christ himself teach us to love our neighbors as well?

God bless.

[PedroX]

LumberJack,

I rarely get involved with these discussions, because...well, frankly I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. However, bare with me as I discuss just two points.

The first is the undeniable fact that the Church (Catholic and otherwise) is indeed full of sinful, wicked people--top to bottom. The Pope goes to confession regularly. My spiritual director, a priest, goes regularly. I go weekly. We are indeed all liars, hypocrites and thieves. I stole time from my company today while I goofed off at my desk. I tell lies regularly to save face, which in fact also qualifies for hypocrisy. The point that you made falls flat at this. No true Christian has ever denied this. Sanctification is a process, a journey. Some are farther along. Some leaders are behind their sheep on the journey. Ideal? No, but we live in a fallen world. The point is rather how miraculously God has preserved His Church for 2000 years. She is still the spotless Bride of Christ, inspite of the spots of Her members.

Secondly, as to the resacrificing of Christ:

Imagine an arc. (like the one in St. Louis!) One point starts at creation, and arches over all of history with the other point coming down at the end of time. This arc represents God's story of Redemption.

Now, imagine a second arc just underneath the first one. One end starts on the day of Christ's resurrection. Again, this arc arches over the rest of History and ends with the end of time. This arc represents the death and resurrection of Christ, the perfect embodiement of God's redemption. Now, everytime the Mass is celebrated, a line shoots down from this arc to touch the specific point in time and space where that Mass is being celebrated. Christ is not crucified again, au contraire! Rather, the Perfect Sacrifice (done once and for all at Calvary!) becomes for a moment present in our time and place. The accidents of the Bread and the Wine become the body and blood, the soul and divinity of Christ our Paschal Lamb.

I hope this helps. Again, any lack in the explanation is mine, not Holy Mother Church.

peace...

[socalscout]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 19 2004, 02:49 PM']
Would you have to accept it even if the church, from the top, down, were filled with liars hypocrites and thieves? double tongued serpents? Would you continue in the Catholic Church if you KNEW that it were filled with evil men? I'm not saying it is, so don't think I am...I'm just asking, would you still stick around if the church were FILLED with evil men?

I KNOW its a big IF, but please, just answer...




[/quote]
I find that most non-Catholics have this problem with Catholicism. They feel that the sinfulness of it's followers nullifies the actual teachings of the Church. In fact they make very broad generalizaions to apply to all clergy and lay.

For example, the sexual scandals of some scumbag priests. They are sinful pedophiles so any Church that would allow them to shepard their flock must be sinful and wrong as well. What amazes me the most is that non-Catholics will aknowledge that man is not perfect yet condem the Church for not having perfect followers and leaders.


There are too many holes in other Christian doctrines and history and it also amazes me to see you and everyone else ok with it. You are content to know that the Bible is your only source and that you are forever saved and forgiven for your future sins. To me it sounds great. I don't have to do anything but read the Bible and aknowledge Christ as my personal Savior. Why wouldn't everyone jump aboard that gravy train, huh? TRUTH is the reason why they don't. People who seek Truth and not the feel good Sunday Gospel sermon will always come back to the teaching of the Church but they do not want to because they see old sinful men leading the Church. That is a flawed way of thinking. I know this because I used to sepearate God from HIS Church and believe me I ran amuck!

I'm not puting you down LJ. More power to you and the right Bible for you is whatever one you are reading. God Bless.

[Katholikos]

Maybe it would be helpful to explore the ways Catholics and Protestants define "Church." I opened a new thread for that purpose. Y'all come.

[mulls]

bum-bum-bum-badabum-bump

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 21 2004, 04:30 PM'] bum-bum-bum-badabum-bump [/quote]
You have an unhealthy obsession with unity.

Why do we need unity anyway? Heck, as long as you're on the right side, who cares. Hell needs people too.

[mulls]

3 questions:

who started this thread in the first place?

can you guess what recent hip-hop beat i was mimicking with that bump?

where is my private messaging?

[dUSt]

[quote]who started this thread in the first place?[/quote]
Me, but only because I was thinking of you.

[quote]can you guess what recent hip-hop beat i was mimicking with that bump?[/quote]
Ice Ice Baby

[quote]where is my private messaging?[/quote]
I removed that functionality from "non-Catholics" because of some harrasment that has been going on behind the scenes. I'll probably just end up creating an "On Probation" member group instead--and put the specific violaters in that group, so you'll have your PMs back soon.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='jasJis' date='May 18 2004, 03:36 PM'] Not that I think that it [the Catholic Church] is the only denomination that serves God's will as a source of Grace.

[/quote]
It's painful to see the Mother Church of all Christendom referred to as a "denomination." She is the [i]Nomination[/i] and the One True Church from which all [i]denominations[/i] are ultimately derived.

Sorry, Jas Jis. I'm sure it was unintentional.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 19 2004, 02:20 PM']

and likos...it looks like they were using holy MUD, not holy water... your use of the Old Testament and Israel's Mosaic law to try to establish a reason for the new Catholic Church law/tradition is...well...iffy.

if you want to follow the Mosaic law, then do it...but don't set up a religious system that uses some and not all.

[/quote]
Christ and His Apostles set up the "religious system" called the Catholic Church. And it incorporated some of the sacramentals used in the Jewish faith. Complain to them if you don't like the way they did it. If God didn't get it right, there's nothing either of us can do about it

And that's the way it is, world without end, amen.