Theories On Unity

[dUSt]

Okay everyone. Brainstorming objectively, let's talk about how the unity of Christianity may someday come about.

Here are some possible scenarios I whipped up:

1. All Christians submit to the authority of the pope, and are unified under the universal Catholic Church.

2. All Christians reject denominationalism and become, basically, non-denominational--agreeing on a very basic core set of beliefs

3. All Christians become part of another denomination (Baptist, Methodist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc)

Now... those are the only three scenarios I came up with. Can anyone think of anything else? Obviously, #1 will be the most popular choice here.

Personally, I think #2 is impossible because the very idea of it shows lack of unity--as it depends totally on personal beliefs of the individual--and not of the whole. So... I think if we look at it objectively, #1 and #3 are the possible outcomes... Now, thinking globally, with Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestantism, Catholicism, etc. Which Christian establishment, truly, has the universal reach, structure and organization to even have a remote chance of unifying Christianity? Can we honestly say that it is anything except the Catholic Church?

So, if unity is a goal, shouldn't we be doing everything in our power to support the Church in that mission?

[mulls]

the Catholic church has the best shot of doing this, with its power, wealth, and influence. unfortunately, unless its doctrines change, those who remain outside of the Church now will most likely always continue to do so.

the movement would have to become more of a straight-up attempt to convert all Christians to Catholicism instead of falling under the guise of making Christians one big happy family.

in any situation, people would have to change their beliefs. it ain't gonna happen, for better or for worse.



oh and what's the point of being unified if we're all unitedly in error (obviously arguing from the basic non-catholic perspective)?

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2004, 11:34 AM'] oh and what's the point of being unified if we're all unitedly in error (obviously arguing from the basic non-catholic perspective)? [/quote]
I believe that with unity comes assuredness of truth. Christ did promise in the Bible that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church (wherever you may or may not agree that Church is)--so, if we truly were to become unified, as one, it would impossible to be in error.

Obviously, as a Catholic, I believe that the Church, in it's present state, is in that unified state--and our non-Catholic brethren have separated themselves with that perfect unity.

With that said, if scenario #3 were to happen, and the Catholic Church decided to join the Baptists, the pope became Baptist, and every Christian in the world became Baptist, in order to Christ's promise to be fulfilled, that new Baptist Church would indeed be the Church containing the truth.

[mulls]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2004, 12:34 PM']
the movement would have to become more of a straight-up attempt to convert all Christians to Catholicism instead of falling under the guise of making Christians one big happy family.

[/quote]
let me clarify this point.


if the Church wanted to make this happen, i think the Pope should schedule a huge press briefing, or go set up a huge stage right outside the Vatican, get a million people there and every news station in the world to cover the event.


he should make an announcement and say "The Catholic Church is the one true church of God, founded by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Anyone that considers themself to be a follower of our Lord needs to recognize His present authority on earth, which is the Church. "


he should go on to cite reasons why the Church is the only right church, and then call all believers to be united in Christ, under Rome. this would be a much better way than the Pope simply making statements about how all Christians should be united, which would be a half-hearted attempt at making everyone Catholic, because certainly the Pope would not become un-Catholic.


frankly, i wonder why this isn't being done. like right now. if was the Pope would do this immediately. what's stopping him?

[mulls]

oh and what do you mean by unity?


do we all have to worship the same, sing the same songs, have the same services, evangelize a certain way, believe the exact same things?

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2004, 12:04 PM'] oh and what do you mean by unity?


do we all have to worship the same, sing the same songs, have the same services, evangelize a certain way, believe the exact same things? [/quote]
Hey, I like that idea.

The reason he probably doesn't do it is because you and I both know that it would cause a lot of Christians to reject the Church even more than they do now. He may think that it would do more to hurt the cause of unity than to help it?

And to clarify, unity would mean that we all believe the same things--but it wouldn't necessarily mean we worship the same way. The Church has an ability to adapt to different cultures and regions, as evidenced in the diversity of Catholic churches around the world today. There are also many different orders within the Church who go about evangelization, prayer, etc in totally different ways. There's a place for everybody--yet, through all the diversity, we all submit to the authority of the magisterium and believe the same things, doctrinally.

When discussing unity, it's important to be able to draw the line between doctrine and culture/discipline. If we all believed the same doctrine, I think we'd be unified, despite the differences in the way we act or go about presenting that doctrine.

Mulls--I appreciate you posting here at phatmass. You bring a lot to the table. God bless.

[mulls]

thanks, i try. and good answer.




i honestly think the Pope should do it. seriously, he's in that position, apparently handpicked by God....so come on, step up to the plate!

if he presented his case honestly and openly and said "here's why this needs to happen, and here's why the Catholic way is the truthful way," i think it would work. if anything, it would make all non-catholics take a hard look at where they're at and why they're there, and it would make Catholics take their faith much more seriously.

he should go all out, balls-to-the-wall, and let everyone know that life on earth is a life and death struggle between good and evil, God and the Devil. think about it, it would clear up EVERY possible misconception, because after such an incredible statement, there wouldn't be any more questions to ask. you're either in or out, and nobody could ever use the excuse that they "didn't know."

this is the way it is....God is real, Satan is real, we are corrupted by sin, Jesus died to free us from its bondage and its consequences, the Bible is true, the Church is legit, we're all in this together as human beings whether you know it or not, so choose to accept it or not.

no more half-steppin....make it plain and simple to the world, once and for all. and be ready to suffer the consequences of proclaiming such a powerful message. make it happen, captain.


man, i got myself all fired up, and i don't even agree with myself. ha!

[jasJis]

mulls,
The Catholic Church has made bold Pronouncements as being the One True Faith. It's not a secret. (ref: Trent)

Also, keep in mind, Church leaders are lead by the Holy Spirit, not just by their own opinion. All legitimate Church leaders would be prayerfully reflecting on such a bold move, counseling with others in the Church, and asking to be lead by the Grace of God. God, in His infinite knowledge, may not want it done that way. God is committed to Grace as a Gift given and does not ever force us to accept.

Unity will come about through the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is not noted to move us all in leaps and bounds but by drawing us ever closer to God. We are not the End-All of human existence, there are probably many generations to come after us. Just as the Holy Spirit moved Moses closer to God for the benefit of John the Baptist, and John the Baptist moved others for our benefit generations later, should we be surprised and the slow pace in our life times and have confidence that God's will CANNOT be thwarted?

Many Christians will be lost from each other because of error, but that does not neccissarily (though possibly) mean they are lost from God. A thousand days in God's house is better than 1 day, but 1 day in His House is better than a thousand years elsewhere...

One day, all Christians will again recognize the Authority of the Church that serves us through the Pope. I don't think it'll be in my grandchildren's lifetime, but then again, it's not my plan.

[the lumberjack]

I would LOVE to be united as a family in Christ.

but as mulls said, unless the Catholic Church changes some of its teachings/doctrines/dogma/whateverelsemightbewrong, its not going to happen.

and dust...have you ever been to a catholic church in Mexico?

[Livin_the_MASS]

Number 1 [b]theirs nothing wrong with Christ's Catholic Church's Teachings it's 100% Truth[/b]

Number 2 [b]keep dreaming nothing is going to change to make them live up to YOUR approval[/b]


God Bless
Jason

Edited May 18, 2004 by Jason

[phatcatholic]

honest to God, i don't understand why more people aren't catholic. there's a solid answer to every single objection and solid proof for every single belief. i have never been posed a question and not been able to find a substantial answer.

sometimes i just wish people would STOP...........step back for a moment..........take a deep breath............sit down...........and honestly listen to what we have to say. i mean, how come it makes so much sense to some people and its utter nonsense to others?

its frustrating.....

[MC Just]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 01:47 PM'] I would LOVE to be united as a family in Christ.

but as mulls said, unless the Catholic Church changes some of its teachings/doctrines/dogma/whateverelsemightbewrong, its not going to happen.

and dust...have you ever been to a catholic church in Mexico? [/quote]
I've been to a Church in the Rio Grande valley, about 30 minutes from mexico, why are you refering to abuses and weird things going on?

[the lumberjack]

for starters...yes.

the things that go on in the Catholic churches around the world are not what you would think they are...and unless you've been to a Catholic church in, say, Jamaica, or Mexico, or any where else outside the states, you should seriously look into the amount of unity actually in the Catholic Church.

a lot of those churches are catholic only by name...

I was raised a good portion of my childhood in Mexico, and right across the street from my grandmother's house is a catholic church...and man...I don't think I ever heard Christ mentioned once the number of times I went.

it was ALL the virgen of guadlupe and juan diego and this idol and the other...NEVER CHRIST...ever.

God bless.

[mulls]

Jas,


what makes you think that one day all Christians will recognize the Catholic Church and the Pope?


from what Scripture says, things are going to get a lot more ugly before they get better....and they won't get better till Jesus returns.

[dUSt]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 02:30 PM'] I was raised a good portion of my childhood in Mexico, and right across the street from my grandmother's house is a catholic church...and man...I don't think I ever heard Christ mentioned once the number of times I went.

it was ALL the virgen of guadlupe and juan diego and this idol and the other...NEVER CHRIST...ever.

God bless. [/quote]
Well, apparently you've never attended a mass there then, as every mass is centered around Jesus Christ and the Gospels. There's no getting out of that, no matter how much emphasis they place on Mary or the saints.