Engagement-wedding....does My Friend Have A Point

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote][color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]-She hates the idea of asking for her father's blessing. She's not that close with her family though they're all "good people" and finds it arcaic and insulting. He said it's a blessing and not permission. She is going to "allow" him to since it means so much to him but to me she's told me just how stupid she thinks it is.[/font][/color][/quote]

While there's nothing wrong with a father's blessing, I can see why she has a problem. She doesn't see it as primarily a blessing, but permission. I think she's done the right thing by letting her boyfriend ask her father since it means so much to him, even if she thinks it's stupid. I like to think of asking for a "father's blessing" is more like letting the family know you're thinking of asking their daughter to marry you, for their support and possible help with everything.


[quote][color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]-She loves surprizes but said that engagement shouldn't be a surprize. No decision ever should be. I kinda agree with this. But she's pulling some serious feminatzi croutons.[/font][/color][/quote]

Engagement should be a mutual decision that's talked about a lot. The actual asking, however, can be a surprise. She's smart to know that it should be discussed long before the asking.

[quote][color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]-She thinks the actual getting of a ring is also arcaic and that if she's going to wear one he should too. She asked for the cheapest ring she saw because she dosn't think highly of the tradition. I think she'll regret this.[/font][/color][/quote]

A ring was originally used as a kind of insurance policy, in case something happened to the fiance. That way a bride could have something to sell so she wouldn't be completely destitute. Other times it was a compensation because it was harder for women who were previously engaged to find a husband if something happened to the fiance. Nowadays the engagement ring is a status symbol. The bigger the ring, the bigger your husband's paycheck and the better job you did in finding a husband. If the ring truly is meant to be a symbol of their love and commitment, there's nothing wrong with asking her fiance to also wear a ring, and there's nothing wrong with getting an inexpensive one.

[quote][color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]-For a Catholic she dosn't seem to really value your whole Mass thing. She thinks its ridiculous to get all dressed up. I thought getting dressed up was manditory but apparently that's for like Baptists and Catholics women can wear pantaloons to church and stuff[/font][/color][/quote]

For Catholic women, you can be "dressed up" and wear nice pantaloons. It's important to look presentable because it reflects the importance of the occasion. You do your best within your budget. Not having a fancy dress (or a dress at all) doesn't mean she doesn't value the Mass. Spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a dress you only wear once is very, very impractical, especially for someone who seems to be very concerned about finances.

[quote][color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]-She dosn't want a reception. She thinks that it's a waste of time to be in front of people even if it's only a few (her boyfriend and her want to keep the guest list to 30...parents, grandparents, sibs only plus a friend or two each). Her boyfriend has some idea but through hints so likely no idea.[/font][/color][/quote]

You don't have to have a giant reception. Again, it sounds like your friend is concerned about spending lots of money frivolously. Some people feel it's important to put lots of money into their special day. Others, the "trappings" of a wedding aren't nearly as important as what it is - the day you vow before God and the community to spend the rest of your life united with your spouse. The marriage is what's important, not the wedding.

Honestly, it sounds like she knows what's really important. There's nothing wrong with all these wedding traditions, but they aren't necessary. If her boyfriend wants some of the things she doesn't, they should talk about it. But it already sounds like they do, as she's already relented about the "Father's Blessing" thing because she knows how important it is to him. If she's happy, and her boyfriend's happy, well...there's nothing for you to do about it.

[Archaeology cat]

I was never given an engagement ring, by my choice. I don't wear much jewelry and in fact am allergic to gold. My husband did surprise me with a very pretty ring prior to our wedding, but it was after we were already engaged.

[hotpink]

Holy moley all! Thank you for the many responses. My friend is pretty razzle dazzle...even if she's an emotinal creature.

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1344227994' post='2463325']
As a guy I am fairly sure I won't be given a whole lot of say in such things, but if I get married I'd like to keep things on the cheap.

I also am pretty sure I don't like the idea of waiting to "pop the question," so much as having a continuous discussion while dating. Obviously there would come a point where you just have to make the decision and it should be special, but making it a surprise seems odd to me.

As for rings, I think it would be razzle dazzle to make them.
[/quote]

Yeah, they've discussed it alot...even a date of getting married but he wants to have the giving of the ring be a surprize and she's not happy about that at all.

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1344228104' post='2463326']
I asked for a $30 engagement ring and made our wedding rings. Our first wedding had about two dozen people and our church blessing had about half a dozen people. I always stressed to my clients to spend more time planning for the marriage, and less time planning for the wedding.
[/quote]

They'ved talked alot about marriage...he's from a wealthy family so the ring is going to be $600 becuase he wants it to be a real diamond. Thats the cheapest he's willing to go for her.

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1344228384' post='2463329']
Interesting. Might be better for her to ask these sorts of things herself, because - and I mean none of this to come off as inhospitable - it doesn't seem like you're big into the whole religion thing, so some of the subtler nuance of answers you get here may be lost in translation from you to her.
[/quote]

I've never been any religion but I like you guys...and I wouldn't just say that. I actually want to know just as much for me as for her becuase I find the whole thing rather facinating. Like watching Canadians make fries. You know the kind where they put coagulated milk and gravey on them?

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1344236871' post='2463359']
Your friend does sound very sensible. Things are expensive these days, so it makes sense not to spend more than she has to. Getting married is such a big deal and so I don't think engagement should ever really be a surprise. Dating leads to marriage, so if a couple is in a serious relationship I think they should definitely be speaking about marriage. What matters most is that the two people are getting married for the right reasons.

Personally I love all the "archaic" stuff like blessings, but I can understand why others wouldn't.

[/quote]

She (and he) seem to have discussed more than I ever thought of. I was thinking it was typical of Catholics to talk about all that stuff. I tend to pry becuase I'm so curious about how Catholics are different. Though another Catholic I know who also goes to church likes all the tradition stuff...but he's a guy so I'm now wondering if I become Catholic if I have to like all the tradition stuff or if I can just do the modern stuff and those masses with music that's normal and not old fashioned.


[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1344239482' post='2463364']
I think the surprise of popping the question isn't necessarily all that bad. obviously there should be a continuing discussion over the course of the relationship about the issue, the real decision should actually already be made by the time the question gets popped. ie, you've both discussed it, and both decided you'd be ready, but you're not engaged until you pop the question. in some ways it's a question you should already know the answer to based on your previous discussions, but it also should basically be one last chance to change her mind and opt-out by saying no, so there should still be the nervousness of whether she'll say yes or no.

I think we run the risk of getting too sensible and calculating about things and losing the magic a little bit. I definitely agree about being sensible regarding financials and all that, the cost of weddings these days are ridiculous. not saying you absolutely have to do the surprise proposal thing, but I don't think it needs to be dismissed so much.
[/quote]


Again, I'm trying to sort out the Catholic bit, not that I'm an expert on weddings.

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1344246361' post='2463380']
tis stupid to start the rest of your life together $10k-20k in debt from the wedding.
[/quote]
Yeah. They do plan on keeping it simple. But she dosn't want to be the center of attention...weither it be a thousand dollar affiar or a backyard bbq. She has all sorts of opinions about that...but I think she's whisling into the wind or whatever the polite version of that would be.

[quote name='fierce' timestamp='1344271883' post='2463484']
First: It would be okay if you [i]were[/i] gay.

Second: Your friend doesn't sound too immature for marriage.

Third: It doesn't sound like any of this is really a huge deal. If I were in your shoes, I would support her.
[/quote]


Thanks on all accounts. I do find it emotinal but maybe it isn't that immature.

Edited August 7, 2012 by hotpink

[hotpink]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1344273153' post='2463492']
meh... my impression of this whole thing was kinda negative. If the guy involved wants some things a little more traditional, I don't think she should be freaking out so so much. If she wants to be all "progressive/non-traditional" maybe the guy should actually get some say in the wedding. (that's totally non-traditional!!!!) If its the mom or someone else who wants all this stuff then that's a different matter.

While I don't think you need to spend a pile of money on a wedding dress, it is a one time sacrament kind of deal, and I think you should dress at least as nice as if you were going to a formal dinner or something like that unless you absolutely can't afford it. And I think it is important to have a reception. The families (hopefully) won't be chatting it up during the service so they need some time to celebrate and talk etc!!
[/quote]

He's actually picking the flowers and the music (for both the ceremony and reception) he also narrowed down what he dosn't want in the readings. So he has alot of the input.

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1344276419' post='2463516']
I will answer a few of these from my point of view as a young woman.

Wedding dress - Spending like $3,000+ dollars on a dress is ridiculous, even $2,000 or $1,500. You don't have to get your dress from Kleinfeld or Bridal by Lori. You can get a beautiful dress for $150 or $200 and I've always thought that wearing a family heirloom wedding dress was a really razzle dazzle idea. So some could even have NO price!

Surprise Engagement - There should definitely be a mutual discussion and decision on getting married. But I think it's really razzle dazzle if the bride doesn't know WHEN he'll pop the question, and I think it's special that way. But there should definitely be talk of marriage before the proposal. So, not a surprise exactly, but at least for it to be special in that way.

Reception - She'll have to have a reception. It doesn't have to be big an extravagant or take away from the ceremony or anything, but it's expected.

Father's permission - I know it's different with other people's families and situations. But in my case, my dad would approve of the guy before I even DATED him, meaning that he would approve him as a candidate for marriage, and I think I would like it if he asked my dad if he could marry me. I think it's sweet. But any guy I would date would have to be okay with my dad anyway.

The Ring - I HAVE NO CLUE. I don't really have an opinion other than that I think that I would like it if both me and my future husband wore wedding rings. I don't think the groom has to have an engagement ring though, it sounds kind of strange. Oh, and they don't have to be expensive! Again, you can get engagement rings/ wedding rings on the cheap. My mom had a set. Her wedding ring was a band that connected to her engagement ring. Now she has an anniversary band that my dad got her on their 10 year anniversary, I think. I, personally, would like to be surprised with the engagement ring, don't care how expensive it is. Okay, so I guess I did have an opinion.

Prayers for this young couple.
[/quote]

Thanks I'll let her know you're praying. She likes that kinda stuff. She's a bit of a tom boy so she dosn't spend money on clothes. Loves Savers and Salvation Army.


[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1344280935' post='2463528']
While there's nothing wrong with a father's blessing, I can see why she has a problem. She doesn't see it as primarily a blessing, but permission. I think she's done the right thing by letting her boyfriend ask her father since it means so much to him, even if she thinks it's stupid. I like to think of asking for a "father's blessing" is more like letting the family know you're thinking of asking their daughter to marry you, for their support and possible help with everything.




Engagement should be a mutual decision that's talked about a lot. The actual asking, however, can be a surprise. She's smart to know that it should be discussed long before the asking.



A ring was originally used as a kind of insurance policy, in case something happened to the fiance. That way a bride could have something to sell so she wouldn't be completely destitute. Other times it was a compensation because it was harder for women who were previously engaged to find a husband if something happened to the fiance. Nowadays the engagement ring is a status symbol. The bigger the ring, the bigger your husband's paycheck and the better job you did in finding a husband. If the ring truly is meant to be a symbol of their love and commitment, there's nothing wrong with asking her fiance to also wear a ring, and there's nothing wrong with getting an inexpensive one.



For Catholic women, you can be "dressed up" and wear nice pantaloons. It's important to look presentable because it reflects the importance of the occasion. You do your best within your budget. Not having a fancy dress (or a dress at all) doesn't mean she doesn't value the Mass. Spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a dress you only wear once is very, very impractical, especially for someone who seems to be very concerned about finances.



You don't have to have a giant reception. Again, it sounds like your friend is concerned about spending lots of money frivolously. Some people feel it's important to put lots of money into their special day. Others, the "trappings" of a wedding aren't nearly as important as what it is - the day you vow before God and the community to spend the rest of your life united with your spouse. The marriage is what's important, not the wedding.

Honestly, it sounds like she knows what's really important. There's nothing wrong with all these wedding traditions, but they aren't necessary. If her boyfriend wants some of the things she doesn't, they should talk about it. But it already sounds like they do, as she's already relented about the "Father's Blessing" thing because she knows how important it is to him. If she's happy, and her boyfriend's happy, well...there's nothing for you to do about it.
[/quote]

Got you on the wedding stuff. She does talk to her boyfriend but she relents (and then whines about it to me) becuase she loves him. But part of me thinks she really just hates traditional...anything. From how she raisies her dog to using linux insted of windows to bucking the TV and well...just everything. Her only commitment besides her boyfriend is work. She goes to Mass sometimes daily at one of two dozen different parishes (some an hour away from where she lives). From my research Catholis are supposed to stick to one parish. All the priests like her apparently, so I guess she can get married.

What women who's not a lesbian wears pantaloons to her wedding though? Not to be mean. I just can't see it even in the regular world outside of Catholics.


[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1344281325' post='2463531']
I was never given an engagement ring, by my choice. I don't wear much jewelry and in fact am allergic to gold. My husband did surprise me with a very pretty ring prior to our wedding, but it was after we were already engaged.
[/quote]

Sweet!

[MissyP89]

You don't necessarily have to like "traditional stuff" to be Catholic. There are a LOT of different opinions here, and most of us are 100% faithful to the Catholic Church. That's kind of why I like this faith so much ... there's room for everyone.

We're different because of the way we choose to love ourselves and love other people -- we're trying to love like Jesus loves us. We're not perfect at it and all of us fail, but that unconditional love is what I think sets us apart. It makes us into better people and it gives joy to people that really need it.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='hotpink' timestamp='1344306557' post='2463766']

Yeah. They do plan on keeping it simple. But she dosn't want to be the center of attention...weither it be a thousand dollar affiar or a backyard bbq. She has all sorts of opinions about that...but I think she's whisling into the wind or whatever the polite version of that would be.
[/quote]

She's just going to have to give up on that one. Whether she has 30 or 300 people she WILL be the center of attention because it's her wedding.

The rest of it... it sounds like she's got some valid opinions mixed with a dash over-dramatic silliness. Not every wedding dress costs 3 grand. Not every reception hall is going to cost 15k. She can have the dress, reception, etc., for far, far less than 25k. It almost sounds like she's using the high ticket price to justify having none of it. I don't think she's wrong about everything, but like you said, being a bit emotional.

My husband never asked my parents for their blessing. We just showed up and I told them we were engaged. When my mom said "He's supposed to ask us first!" I said "Too late, I already said yes." 10 amesome years later I clearly made the right decision. Point being, there's no single set of rules for how to plan a wedding that we all have to follow. All the little details will line up differently for each couple, so even if I think she's being silly maybe that's still the perfect thing for her.

[franciscanheart]

I don't know that I'd call it emotional, just dramatic.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1344352456' post='2464012']
I don't know that I'd call it emotional, just dramatic.
[/quote]

I said both. (From the side of the story we got it sounds like she's being dramatic but then emotional over disagreement with what she wants.)

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote]

[color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Got you on the wedding stuff. She does talk to her boyfriend but she relents (and then whines about it to me) becuase she loves him. But part of me thinks she really just hates traditional...anything. From how she raisies her dog to using linux insted of windows to bucking the TV and well...just everything. Her only commitment besides her boyfriend is work. She goes to Mass sometimes daily at one of two dozen different parishes (some an hour away from where she lives). From my research Catholis are supposed to stick to one parish. All the priests like her apparently, so I guess she can get married.[/font][/color]


[color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]What women who's not a lesbian wears pantaloons to her wedding though? Not to be mean. I just can't see it even in the regular world outside of Catholics.[/font][/color][/quote]

I see. It sounds to me like you're one of those people who really finds a lot of good in traditional gender roles...and nothing wrong with that! For Catholics, we're encouraged to stick with a single parish because the community is an important aspect of spiritual life (as you know). But it's not required. And I've noticed that in general, people don't usually "settle down" in a church until they're married. Maybe she likes the variety - a priest's and parish community's personality can have a lot of diversity, even while they're all still Catholic.

I'm a person who is super excited to eventually pick out my fancy dress, pick out the music for the liturgy, and I even told my boyfriend that he has to ask my parents for their blessing before he proposes, and that proposition shall include a lovely ring. But like lots of people have said before, none of that really matters. I could get married in my interview suit in a small church with just our parents present. One of the wonderful things about Catholicism is that diversity - there are many, many ways in which to be Catholic. There are certain norms that must be followed (you can't write your own vows, you have to get married in a church, etc), but outside of those there's plenty of room for all kinds of crazy people.

As far as your friend goes, I'd maybe try to find out what's motivating all of her "rejections" of traditional wedding stuff. Is it money? Feminism (not a bad thing, I might add)? Does it all just make her feel uncomfortable? I know wedding planning can be super stressful - maybe she's trying to avoid a bunch of stress?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1344246361' post='2463380']
tis stupid to start the rest of your life together $10k-20k in debt from the wedding.
[/quote]
Why do you assume the couple would be in debt? It took my husband and I a year of scrimping and saving, and we did a lot of the wedding stuff ourselves, but our wedding was paid for by the wedding date. My kids are doing the same thing, there is no need to go in debt to get married.

[PhuturePriest]

I will comment on the only thing I actually kind of care about from the opening post.

To get her father's blessing is very important. As Catholic Chastity Speaker Jason Evert says, her father loves her far more than this man ever could at this point. He has taken care of her, paid outrageous medical bills for her, supported her, and has (Hopefully) been willing to take a bullet for her since she was in the womb, not to mention all sorts of things I can't think about at this particular moment. This is compared to the guy who has dated her for a little while and has romantic feelings for her, and yes, maybe has bought some expensive meals and gifts. There is no real comparison here. I'm not saying love is defined by how much you spend on a person, but a willingness and track record to do anything for your loved one speaks volumes. They should both listen to her father closely and respect his opinion. When parents oppose a marriage the marriage success rate plummets, because despite what we young'ns think, they have more experience and know what they are talking about. Sometimes parents oppose a marriage without just reason, and I am actually watching this sort of thing happen in my own family (My mother doesn't necessarily oppose the marriage, but she is doing just about anything to be difficult because she hates the in-laws for absolutely no reason other than her daughter is going to move away), but generally parents do have valid concerns.

Edited August 7, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1344377040' post='2464152']
I will comment on the only thing I actually kind of care about from the opening post.

To get her father's blessing is very important. As Catholic Chastity Speaker Jason Evert says, her father loves her far more than this man ever could at this point. He has taken care of her, paid outrageous medical bills for her, supported her, and has (Hopefully) been willing to take a bullet for her since she was in the womb, not to mention all sorts of things I can't think about at this particular moment. This is compared to the guy who has dated her for a little while and has romantic feelings for her, and yes, maybe has bought some expensive meals and gifts. There is no real comparison here. I'm not saying love is defined by how much you spend on a person, but a willingness and track record to do anything for your loved one speaks volumes. They should both listen to her father closely and respect his opinion. When parents oppose a marriage the marriage success rate plummets, because despite what we young'ns think, they have more experience and know what they are talking about.
[/quote]
I agree with you in most cases, including my own. My dad is all the things you listed in the beginning, and I know of other dads who are as well. But the truth is that not everyone's dad is going to agree with their daughter, even when she is right. What about girls with no dad? Whose dad left? etc. Or what about convert women who are marrying a devout Catholic, but her father is atheist? Obey your father and mother in all things that are not sinful.

Edit: I listed those situations because I personally know people who are in them.

Edited August 7, 2012 by FutureCarmeliteClaire

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1344377330' post='2464156']
I agree with you in most cases, including my own. My dad is all the things you listed in the beginning, and I know of other dads who are as well. But the truth is that not everyone's dad is going to agree with their daughter, even when she is right. What about girls with no dad? Whose dad left? etc. Or what about convert women who are marrying a devout Catholic, but her father is atheist? Obey your father and mother in all things that are not sinful.

Edit: I listed those situations because I personally know people who are in them.
[/quote]

I know. I actually had something in there about listening to your father within reason, but I edited it so many times before I posted I must have accidentally left it out.

Edit: There, I fixed it. Much better.

Edited August 7, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[beatitude]

[quote name='hotpink' timestamp='1344306557' post='2463766']
She (and he) seem to have discussed more than I ever thought of. I was thinking it was typical of Catholics to talk about all that stuff. I tend to pry becuase I'm so curious about how Catholics are different. Though another Catholic I know who also goes to church likes all the tradition stuff...but he's a guy so I'm now wondering if I become Catholic if I have to like all the tradition stuff or if I can just do the modern stuff and those masses with music that's normal and not old fashioned.[/quote]

All the traditions you gave in your post - the expensive dress, the ring, the romantic surprise question - are cultural traditions, not religious ones. A Catholic wedding in the USA will look different from a Catholic wedding in, say, Thailand. At the heart of any Catholic wedding is the fact that is is a life-changing sacrament, and the bride and the groom will work out how to celebrate that in a way that is meaningful and special to them. It may mean having a culturally traditional wedding, or it may not. There will be a wedding Mass, and the Mass will look much the same from culture to culture (allowing for differences in liturgical rites), but the details of the party and the rings and the proposal and all the extras like that are up to the couple. We don't have specific Catholic rules on the colour of the bridal shoes, or how much confetti to use.

[quote]
Yeah. They do plan on keeping it simple. But she dosn't want to be the center of attention...weither it be a thousand dollar affiar or a backyard bbq. She has all sorts of opinions about that...but I think she's whisling into the wind or whatever the polite version of that would be.
[/quote]

This is one of the reasons why getting married can be so hard: the couple's choices are constantly getting scrutinised. No matter what the bride and groom decide to do, they will never please everybody. Being the centre of attention unfortunately means that you have to bear the weight of all those expectations (I've seen this happen at far too many weddings) and I'm not surprised that your friend is reluctant to take that on. She isn't hiring you as a wedding planner, so the kindest thing to do for her might be to stop giving her unsolicited advice, and to help make sure that the attention she receives as the bride is supportive. That way she won't feel so overwhelmed. If she needs anything more from you - advice etc. - she will ask for it.

[Maggyie]

One can "elope" within the church. While it's nice to ask for the father's blessing (my husband talked to my dad first) it's not necessary. Catholic brides are never "given away" at weddings like they do in TV or movies. The parents really have no particular role at all in the marriage liturgy.

Granted a engagement with a preparation period lasting months and involving careful selection of readings and music doesn't fit the traditional model of elopement. But it's possible to have a wedding featuring only the bride and groom, 2 witnesses and a priest. And if they desire more guests they could always just have an early morning wedding and serve coffee cake, punch and coffee/tea in the parish basement for an hour afterward. No fuss required.