A Question For Separated Brethren

[CatholicAndFanatical]

edited because I read Dusts other post...my bad...


[quote name='"lumberjack"']
 
if you don't HAVE to pray in front of statues, just tell me.  if I don't have to call Mary anything besides a blessed vessel of God, just tell me.  but if I HAVE to call her anything other than what the Lord Christ has layed out in His word, or kneel in front of a statue and ask this dead person to intercede for me to Christ, when thru Christ I am fully blessed and capable of coming myself.
[/quote]

Like Dust already pointed out you DONT have to do any of these EXCEPT Believe and know that Mary is the Mother of God, and thats what you call Her, She is Our Mother . and its required to believe that She is the Mother of God.

You said LJ: "if i dont have to call Mary anything other than what the Lord Christ layed out in his word...."

Jesus's Words LAYED OUT FOR LJ: "Woman behold your Son" - "Son Behold your Mother"



And Im with Dust, you are not fully capable of coming to Christ yourself..He left us a Church to guide us to Him. He didnt leave us orphans.

And to say we ask a 'dead person' is not only ignorantly wrong in saying its also disrespectful. Mary and all the other Saints are more alive now than they ever could possibly be on Earth. Is God the God of the LIVING or of the dead?


[quote name='"lumberjack"']

you know dust, I can not say whether or not you would lose your salvation...thats completely God's call.  but I would never bow down in front of a statue, or any other image of anyone, and pray to them to intercede for me.  I would never kiss a statue.  I would never do anything to detract from the rightful and holy position that ONLY Christ should and does have.
[/quote]

This is ridiculous LJ, we are not worshiping the statues while doing this, plus its not a Church Requirement to do it..

If you dont want people interceeding for you, then dont ever ask someone else to pray for you because thats exactly what your doing.

We are all part of the Body, we dont loose the Body because we Die, were still apart of it. We are surrounded by a cloud of witness's are we not? What are witness's LJ? Saints, Witness's to the faith that won the race.

If you find yourself worshiping a statue, or putting a dead relatives picture above or even equal to that of Gods, then seek counseling..We dont teach it, or believe it..if thats your perception then so be it your wrong..not I or the Church.


[quote name='"lumberjack"']
Just be sure to NEVER lose sight of Christ as the first and only medaitor and redeemer we have.  Without whom there is no hope...
[/quote]

Agreed Christ is the only Mediator to God..but whos the mediator between me and Christ??

No one has EVER, EVER said that Mary is the Mediator with God the Father, or that Mary asks God the Father to do anything..

Mary is the way to Christ, just as Christ used Mary to get to us. She doesnt go to God the Father, but God the Son, and the Son goes to the Father.

The words to think about LJ are from Mary Herself in Scriptures while Visiting Elizabeth:
[b]My soul [color=blue]Magnifies[/color] the Lord[/b]


Magnifies! Brings Christ Closer to us, through HER. how awesome is that.


God bless

Edited May 24, 2004 by CatholicAndFanatical

[Quietfire]

My request still stands please, pretty please.

[quote]thank Cmom for the clarification....on the abortion issue.

did I get the dogma-doctrine right?

Can you give an example that wasnt an issue 2000 years ago but is today, whereby needing the Church to clarify it?
So that it will explain the differences to Lumber and Mulls, to prove that we need an authority to lead us.[/quote]


Peace.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='May 24 2004, 10:18 AM'] My request still stands please, pretty please.




Peace. [/quote]
There are lot's of issues.

How about Politicians publicly supporting Abortion and believing it's okay with the Church? How about the many social justice issues concerning poverty, forms of government, racial issues, the arms race, womens right to vote, dealing with homosexuality in light of new knowledge, in-vitro fertilization, cloning, etc.? How about raising your child with morals and religious beliefs in today's world? How about teaching about the graces of Marriage in light of recent developments with same sex marriage? I cannot think of anything that the Church does not touch on when I consider the Church as [b]one[/b] [u]of the many [/u]ways that God has chosen to provide the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[Quietfire]

Yes and I understand all of that.

But my question was simple.
Abortion existed 2000 years ago as addressed in Scripture.

Is there anything now, that wasnt specifically around (like invitro fertilization say) that can be used as a reason for Church authority needing to elaborate and clarify it.

and of course what the Church's word on it is?

[mulls]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='May 24 2004, 01:21 AM']
Agreed Christ is the only Mediator to God..but whos the mediator between me and Christ??



Mary is the way to Christ, just as Christ used Mary to get to us. She doesnt go to God the Father, but God the Son, and the Son goes to the Father.

[/quote]
seriously?


didn't Jesus say something about HIMSELF being the Way....that nobody goes to the Father but through HIM?


when did he say that nobody could go to Him except through somebody else? i didn't know praying was a chain reaction sequence....at least one that i nvovles more than the Son and Father


Mary--->Jesus--->Father?


do you need to go through somebody to get to Mary too?

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]Lumberjack,


is this really true?

do you really have an infallible interpretation of Scripture?

if you do, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me what it is, so that i will have it right as well?

i'm totally sick of reading it for myself. do you have any books that i could just read instead, to make things easier? and this way, i will also be able to tell EVERYBODY else that they are wrong and we have it right.


sweet.
[/quote]

I still don't understand how this isn't relativism? Help me understand.

[mulls]

you apparently don't understand sarcasm either.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='May 24 2004, 10:50 AM'] Yes and I understand all of that.

But my question was simple.
Abortion existed 2000 years ago as addressed in Scripture.

Is there anything now, that wasnt specifically around (like invitro fertilization say) that can be used as a reason for Church authority needing to elaborate and clarify it.

and of course what the Church's word on it is? [/quote]
I don't understand your question now. I gave you examples of issues. The Catechism is a compendium of what the Church speaks on issues. Use the index or word search. The Catechism will reference Scripture, writings by the Church Doctors, writings by Saints, writings by Popes, Canon Law, etc. It's all linked together because everything still must go to root issues taught by Jesus.

Abortion, the Death Penalty, Cloning, and In-Vitro Fertilization all have the same roots in Genisis. God created everything of the universe in Love for us that we may to freely choose to Love God. Humanity is not atoms and electrons that form molecules and bodies. We are embodied spirits, created in Love, and we all have the God given Dignity of being Loved by the One and Only Creator of All.

The Church of Today, is the same as the Church of Yesterday, and Tommorrow. It's the Holy Spirit of God present in our lives that we may know God in the Present circumstances of each of our lives.

[Quietfire]

Thanks Jas Jis,
that is what I wanted to know.
Basically, EVERYTHING is answered. You just have to look.
AND the Church has taken care of it, as far as explaining it to us.
Because it is already in Scripture.
My question was, was there anything that is going on today that wasnt specifically going on 2000 years ago, but that we could still show it is answered through Scripture and the Church.
The answer is yes, because...

[quote]It's all linked together because everything still must go to root issues taught by Jesus.[/quote]

thats all I wanted to know.

Big thumbs UP!

Peace.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

mulls, you missed my point.

we all go to Christ, including the Saints..

thats my point. Prots like to get confused and say we think Mary goes directly to the Father and thats not so.

We all pray for each other and go to Christ, who mediates our needs to the Father.

When we ask a Saint to pray for us its no different than asking you to pray for me, besides the fact that they are present with Christ and know Him better than we do now. They ask Christ just like we do, who then mediates to the Father.

No, we dont HAVE to go through Mary, but why wouldnt we? Jesus will never deny His Mother if what She asks is God's will.

A person is only hurting themselves by denying the Help of Our Lady.

[the lumberjack]

how can one be hurting themselves by going to the one redemptor we know and need?

how can it be wrong if we pray to Christ and ask in His name, like HE said...?

how can it be wrong if we seek to draw closer to Christ by going directly to Him, instead of taking some side venue or way that we don't know?

if you were standing across the street from your house, would you call a cab to take you around the block first?

[CatholicAndFanatical]

then you are assuming your in the journey by yourself..are you standing across the street from your house by yourself carrying 20 bags of groceries that represent life, or are there friends with you to help you carry those bags TO the house??

You cannot say you will never need the help of someone elses prayers, ST Paul HIMSELF said PRAY for me...so who are we to think we dont need intercessors to get through our lifes?

As scripture says 'Prayers from the faithful are powerful'.

No one said you couldnt go JUST to Christ, but when you ask someone else to pray for you and with you, that is asking someone to interceed for you. The Saints also interceed for us just as you and I do.

Moses and Elijah were dead a loong time before they appeared to Jesus and Peter and a few other Apostles during the Transfiguration, but they were seen conversing with Christ..they were still ALIVE in Heaven, not dead as you assume.

Edited May 24, 2004 by CatholicAndFanatical

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]you apparently don't understand sarcasm either. [/quote]


Even sarcasm has meaning.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]Lumberjack,


is this really true?

do you really have an infallible interpretation of Scripture?

if you do, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me what it is, so that i will have it right as well?

i'm totally sick of reading it for myself. do you have any books that i could just read instead, to make things easier? and this way, i will also be able to tell EVERYBODY else that they are wrong and we have it right.


sweet.
[/quote]

Let me rephrase the question. If it is the duty of the individual Christian to interpret the Bible to discern questions of faith and morals, then why are there so many different P'sOV? If everybody's POV is given equal credence by different Christians, well, isn't that relativism? If God says one thing to one person, and then tells another person that the first person was wrong, then isn't God a liar?

I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself. I really don't think I've gotten an answer to this question. Of course, it's possible that I overlooked it, in which case feel free to quote what I have overlooked. I'll gladly feel stupid.

Edited May 24, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 22 2004, 11:37 PM']Lumberjack,


is this really true?

do you really have an infallible interpretation of Scripture?

if you do, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me what it is, so that i will have it right as well?

i'm totally sick of reading it for myself. do you have any books that i could just read instead, to make things easier? and this way, i will also be able to tell EVERYBODY else that they are wrong and we have it right.


sweet.[/quote]
Mulls, it is one thing to [i][b]HAVE[/b][/i] an infallible understanding of the Scriptures and quite another to [b][i]THINK YOU HAVE[/i][/b], as all Protestants do with their thousands of competing and contradicting interpretations.

It is [b][i][u]not[/u][/i] [/b]true that Lumberjack is infallible in his interpretation.

It [u][b][i]IS[/i][/b][/u] true that the Catholic Church's interpretation is infallible, and her teaching authority as well.

And instead of running toward the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ, you run the other way, into the arms of her enemies. It can't be [i]Absolute Truth[/i] you are searching for. So what is it? Do you know?

JMJ Likos