A Question For Separated Brethren

[dUSt]

[quote]and as for Christ being the ONLY mediator we have,

"I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NOONE comes to the Father but by ME..."

"for there is one mediator between man and God..."

to intercede on someone's behalf is the job of the saints that are alive, in our world.  [/quote]
You cannot say on one hand that Christ is the only mediator and then turn around in the next sentence and say that only peolpe who are alive can intercede. The same argument against praying to saints can be applied to asking for "living" intercession. Catholic believe that people in Heavan are indeed alive.

So, your problem is not with people interceding for us (because you just clarified that living people here on earth could), your problem is with our belief that the people in heaven are actually active, and can hear us.

So, what do you base that on? Why do you not think that people in heaven can hear us?

[quote]so I ask again, who says that the Catholic Church saints are in heaven?  the Catholic Church?  and if all these saints are in heaven, then what stops all other Christians from being in heaven?[/quote]
Yes, the Church tells us. Nothing stops other Christians from being in heaven. I'm sure that there are millions of more saints than what the Church has formally declared.

[quote]I really do see the good, brother, I just don't want the possibility of any of my catholic brethren to fall to these things.[/quote]
I understand. Catholicism, like any religion, is prone to abuse/misunderstanding, etc. Show me a religion/denomination in which every member follows the teachings perfectly. I have the same concerns that you have. In fact, these concerns prompted me to build this website. I want to "Convert Catholics to Catholicism", in other words, make Catholics better Catholics--which in turn will bring them closer to Christ.

God bless.

[Donna]

"but if I HAVE to call her anything other than what the Lord Christ has layed out in His word, or kneel in front of a statue and ask [b]this dead person[/b] to intercede for me to Christ, [b]when thru Christ [/b]I am fully blessed and capable [b]of coming myself."[/b]

The way God chose to give us Christ- [i]"the Word made flesh"[/i]- was through a human creature. Jesus Himself is a Son -and [i]the[/i] Son- of Mary.

But who shall follow Him in this?

[i]Honor thy father [b]and[/b] thy mother[/i].

Edited May 22, 2004 by Donna

[Donna]

To clarify:

No Mary, no Christ.

That is the will of the Blessed Trinity.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]So, what do you base that on? Why do you not think that people in heaven can hear us?[/quote]

okay, to get this out of the way quickly, I hope, let me ask this...are the brethren that have gone on and died before us "asleep" as the Bible says, or are they in heaven, till Christ's second coming(the rapture for us prots)?

"and those who sleep in Christ shall be raised first...." (I'll look it up if you wants)

[quote]I understand. Catholicism, like any religion, is prone to abuse/misunderstanding, etc. Show me a religion/denomination in which every member follows the teachings perfectly. I have the same concerns that you have. In fact, these concerns prompted me to build this website. I want to "Convert Catholics to Catholicism", in other words, make Catholics better Catholics--which in turn will bring them closer to Christ.[/quote]

and second, amen brother...amen and amen to that.

though I may never see eye to eye with the Catholic Church's stance on Mary or praying for the intercession on our behalf to the dead saints, I pray that you all continue to draw closer to Christ, above all else.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]LJ says:[/b]
okay, to get this out of the way quickly, I hope, let me ask this...are the brethren that have gone on and died before us "asleep" as the Bible says, or are they in heaven, till Christ's second coming(the rapture for us prots)?

"and those who sleep in Christ shall be raised first...." (I'll look it up if you wants)[/quote]

[b]Matthew 27: 50-53[/b]

"But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. And behold the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks split, tombs were opened, [b]and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.[/b] And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

Number 1 Jesus is alive and well, not asleep. He sits at the right hand of the power of God the Father Almighty.

The verse I just gave proofs you point invalid! The Bible doesn't say "asleep" but raised after His Resurrection to be with him.


Did He not say in:
[b]John 14:2-3[/b]

"In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be."

Pax
Jason

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 21 2004, 12:19 AM']

Likos --

and as for my Catholic friends that don't pray to the saints or in front of the statues or to Mary or any of the other things they know are biblically errant, you tell them they're not Catholic...they love the church and the communion that they have.




[/quote]
Let's be clear about this, Lumberjack.

"Biblically errant" to you means [u]anything that does not agree with your personal and private [i]infallible[/i] interpretation of the Scriptures.[/u]

And, in Protestantism, one man's "Biblical errancy" may be another man's "rightly divided, absolutely true, infallible meaning of the Word of God." All Protestants believe they are led to 'all truth' by the Holy Spirit, even though their 'truths' may be in direct conflict.

And, of course, the Church founded by Christ that wrote the New Testament doesn't know what it means, but you do.

Your "Catholic" friends who disagree with the Church -- if, in fact, they disagree --are Protestants in Catholic clothing. The Catholic Church does not teach that it is necessary to kneel and pray in front of statues or other images of Christ and the saints. It is simply something that Catholics have done since Christ founded the Church at the very beginning of Christianity. But your church wasn't around for the first 2,000 years.

I just wanted to clarify what the term "biblically errant" means when used by a Protestant.

Former Southern Baptist who could infallibly interpret the Scriptures ,

JMJ Likos

Edited May 22, 2004 by Katholikos

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 22 2004, 01:54 AM']
okay, to get this out of the way quickly, I hope, let me ask this...are the brethren that have gone on and died before us "asleep" as the Bible says, or are they in heaven, till Christ's second coming(the rapture for us prots)?

"and those who sleep in Christ shall be raised first...." (I'll look it up if you wants)


[/quote]
So as not to hijack this thread, I've opened another one on "Soul Sleep" -- y'all come.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[mulls]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 22 2004, 07:10 AM'] Let's be clear about this, Lumberjack.

"Biblically errant" to you means [u]anything that does not agree with your personal and private [i]infallible[/i] interpretation of the Scriptures.[/u]

[/quote]
Lumberjack,


is this really true?

do you really have an infallible interpretation of Scripture?

if you do, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me what it is, so that i will have it right as well?

i'm totally sick of reading it for myself. do you have any books that i could just read instead, to make things easier? and this way, i will also be able to tell EVERYBODY else that they are wrong and we have it right.


sweet.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 22 2004, 11:37 PM'] Lumberjack,


is this really true?

do you really have an infallible interpretation of Scripture?

if you do, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me what it is, so that i will have it right as well?

i'm totally sick of reading it for myself. do you have any books that i could just read instead, to make things easier? and this way, i will also be able to tell EVERYBODY else that they are wrong and we have it right.


sweet. [/quote]
Just join the One True Catholic Church the one Christ founded. Thats all you need to do no worries!

[the lumberjack]

sorry, bub, likos said [b]I[/b] have infallible interpretation...not the Catholic Church.

take a number, get in line, and get on the train!

take the last train to Compton, I'll be waiting at the station...just be there by 4:30, cuz I have no reservations, don't be slow...

and mulls...yeah, I'll be coming out with a series of serieses (thats multiple series of series) regarding my infallible ability.

the first of which will be called, "Man, I make this look easy!" ...it wasn't "technically" "written" by me, but I had to have the outline of what it was about read to me while I was driving...or actually, being driven.

[Quietfire]

Does this help?

[quote]dog·ma  n.  pl., dog·mas or dog·ma·ta. 1. Theology. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church. 2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine. 3. A principle or belief or a group of them: "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present" (Abraham Lincoln).[/quote]


Murder is Dogma. Christ went further to explain that even in the mind we can commit murder. The Church accepts that this is a dogma.

[quote]doc·trine  n. 1. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma. 2. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent. 3. A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy. 4. Archaic. Something taught; a teaching.
SYNONYMS: doctrine, dogma, tenet. The central meaning shared by these nouns is "a principle taught, advanced, or accepted, as by a group of philosophers": the legal doctrine of due process; church dogma; experimentation, one of the tenets of the physical sciences[/quote]

The Church explains that murder would also include abortion, euthanasia. It elaborates on the dogma so that it is understood by all.
As our world changes, I doubt that these were issues 2000 years ago,(abortion) but now they are. And since it is a moral issue, it is the responsibility of the Church to explain its meaning. She is responsible for us, and as such has specific obligations. In doing so, must explain to us in further detail at times.


If I got it wrong...someone please straighten me out.

Peace.

[cmotherofpirl]

Actually Abortion was an issue 2000 years ago.

Didache ( the teaching of the Apostles, written before the year 100)
Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, [u]you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born[/u]. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own

[Quietfire]

thank Cmom for the clarification....on the abortion issue.

did I get the dogma-doctrine right?

Can you give an example that wasnt an issue 2000 years ago but is today, whereby needing the Church to clarify it?
So that it will explain the differences to Lumber and Mulls, to prove that we need an authority to lead us.


Peace.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 23 2004, 01:00 AM'] sorry, bub, likos said [b]I[/b] have infallible interpretation...not the Catholic Church.

[/quote]
Lumberjack, please produce the comment in some fashion, cut and paste perhaps, and give its source, that will substantiate your allegation that [color=red]"likos said I have infallible interpretation, not the Catholic Church."[/color]

You are careless with the truth. And I don't like it.

I have never made a comment saying that you infallibly interpret, and the Church does not! That's preposterous.

Mods, please take note.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 22 2004, 05:10 AM'] Let's be clear about this, Lumberjack.

"Biblically errant" to you means [u]anything that does not agree with your personal and private [i]infallible[/i] interpretation of the Scriptures.[/u] [/quote]
here you go...

mods take note.