A Question For Separated Brethren

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Of course, I knew that you really didn't want to know the answer and would give the information a cursory reading, or ignore it altogether. I was quite sure you'd make no attempt to understand it. Your follow-up statement proved I was right about that.[/quote]

Likos, I read it. and from what I read, its basically saying that anything and everything could be dogma/doctrine, depending on what the church wants...

and sorry, I won't perscribe to some of its teachings.

and as for my Catholic friends that don't pray to the saints or in front of the statues or to Mary or any of the other things they know are biblically errant, you tell them they're not Catholic...they love the church and the communion that they have.

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and dust,

[quote]But the answering of my question has no bearing on what is/isn't. I said if I were to believe in all Catholic teaching, regardless of the category, is there anything that the Church teaches that would cause me to lose my salvation?[/quote]

here's FINE example of what I'm trying to ask...

first you were OBLIGATED to not eat meat on Fridays, especially during Lent...it was a mortal sin, right?

and NOW, you don't HAVE to, but its encouraged...right? right.

so, is it doctrine, dogma, decree...what?

and what happened to all those people that died with that "sin" on their lives? do they get a "Get out of Hell Free" card? or are they bound because of Catholic Church doctrine, even though it was changed?

if you're saying that I have to pray in front of statues, I nor my family will NEVER be catholic
if you're saying that I have to call Mary all these things that Christ and the Bible never even imply, I nor my family will NEVER be catholic
if you're saying that I have to do all these things that I have been shown to be biblically wrong, and learned for myself to be wrong, I nor my family will NEVER be catholic.

God bless.

[dUSt]

[quote]here's FINE example of what I'm trying to ask...

first you were OBLIGATED to not eat meat on Fridays, especially during Lent...it was a mortal sin, right?[/quote]
Right.

[quote]and NOW, you don't HAVE to, but its encouraged...right?  right.[/quote]
No, not exactly.

[quote]
so, is it doctrine, dogma, decree...what?[/quote]
Why do you keep dodging my question? I pointed out to you twice that the question I'm asking has no bearing on whether or not a teaching is doctrine.

Will you answer my question, or will you not?

[quote]and what happened to all those people that died with that "sin" on their lives?  do they get a "Get out of Hell Free" card?  or are they bound because of Catholic Church doctrine, even though it was changed?[/quote]
Nothing was changed dude. The act of eating meat on Fridays during Lent is not a sin. Please learn about [b]why[/b] we do that, and then you'll better understand the sin involved.

[quote]if you're saying that I have to pray in front of statues, I nor my family will NEVER be catholic[/quote]
Why in the world would you [b]not[/b] pray in front of a statue? What other things will you not pray in front of? A tree? A bed? A small rock? I don't understand why, if certain things are in your vicinity, you're not allowed to pray. Ca you explain it?

[quote]if you're saying that I have to call Mary all these things that Christ and the Bible never even imply, I nor my family will NEVER be catholic[/quote]
I would never encourage you calling Mary anything that Christ or the Bible didn't imply.

But I would be very appreciative if you could answer my question I've repeated twice above already, concerning which teaching will cause me to lose my salvation. Thx.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='foundsheep' date='May 21 2004, 12:55 AM'] why would anybody dare reporting a post by the webmaster? [/quote]
Better question, why bother? The man gets the report message, too, he can change/edit/ban/block/delete/whatever to anything on the site...

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]The authority is the Holy Scriptures.[/quote]

If you have unified, objective Truth from personal interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, why can't protestants agree on what the Scriptures say?

If it is not personal intepretation of Scripture, but on the authority of a "Bible-loving" preacher, where does he get this authority, and again, why the lack of visible unity?

[theculturewarrior]

Hey Mulls:

[quote]From your humorous statements, I perceive that you do not believe in authoritative interpretation. How then is that not relativism? [/quote]

[mulls]

i believe in God's authority. nothing is relative to that.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]But the answering of my question has no bearing on what is/isn't. I said if I were to believe in all Catholic teaching, regardless of the category, is there anything that the Church teaches that would cause me to lose my salvation?[/quote]

you know, as I keep trying to find out, what teachings are absolutely necessary or not...if all are necessary, then just say so please. if you don't HAVE to pray in front of statues, just tell me. if I don't have to call Mary anything besides a blessed vessel of God, just tell me. but if I HAVE to call her anything other than what the Lord Christ has layed out in His word, or kneel in front of a statue and ask this dead person to intercede for me to Christ, when thru Christ I am fully blessed and capable of coming myself.

you know dust, I can not say whether or not you would lose your salvation...thats completely God's call. but I would never bow down in front of a statue, or any other image of anyone, and pray to them to intercede for me. I would never kiss a statue. I would never do anything to detract from the rightful and holy position that ONLY Christ should and does have.

you and God know how closely you follow Christ, and how much you seek His will. I don't. I probly won't ever meet you face to face...but thats ok. The Lord knows your walk and He knows your fruit and He knows your heart.

I can't say whether or not you would lose it, as I've said before. Just be sure to NEVER lose sight of Christ as the first and only medaitor and redeemer we have. Without whom there is no hope...no amount of saints or virgins could ever save us. and praying to someone else other than Christ, even a dead saint, is a shaky thing to do...Saul tried to talk to Samuel, and look at what happened to him.

be blessed brother.

God bless.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]i believe in God's authority. nothing is relative to that.
[/quote]

Me too, but I think we have different ways of discerning God's will and thereby submitting to his authority.

So my question is, how do you know that you are living and believing according to God's will, and thereby accepting and indeed embracing His authority?

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='May 21 2004, 09:47 AM'] Me too, but I think we have different ways of discerning God's will and thereby submitting to his authority.

So my question is, how do you know that you are living and believing according to God's will, and thereby accepting and indeed embracing His authority? [/quote]
hmmm...by reading the Bible, praying, and holding close to what God has taught us.

His word gives us a look at His ultimate authority, and His Holy Spirit makes us feel the authority...yet when it comes to someone telling me something "is of God", the Bible and the Holy Ghost are the authority to which I (among a good majority of my brethren...Christians that is) turn to to validate or nullify the doctrine presented.

now, yes, there are denominations in the protestant arena that do not interpret the Bible correctly, and the brothers that know the truth are doing what they can to correct that.

please don't turn this into an argument that has been seen too many times before...I'm just telling you how I know.

[theculturewarrior]

I apologize if this is old hat, but it sounds as if each man is his own infallible interpreter.

Edited May 21, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

And that would be relativism.

[dUSt]

[quote]you know, as I keep trying to find out, what teachings are absolutely necessary or not...if all are necessary, then just say so please.[/quote]
To be a Catholic you must subscribe to all of her teachings. Yes, they are ALL necessary.

[quote]if you don't HAVE to pray in front of statues, just tell me.  if I don't have to call Mary anything besides a blessed vessel of God, just tell me.  but if I HAVE to call her anything other than what the Lord Christ has layed out in His word, or kneel in front of a statue and ask this dead person to intercede for me to Christ, when thru Christ I am fully blessed and capable of coming myself.[/quote]
The Church doesn't teach that you have to do these things. These are things individuals do to help them feel closer to Christ.

But I would challenge the notion that you are capable of coming to Christ yourself. You need teachers, to teach you how to read so that you can read teh Bible. You need printers who actually print the book that you're reading--for without them, how would you know Christ? If your answer is pastors, or fellow brethren, then you just dissproved your statement yourself. You see, we cannot come to Christ all alone--we must cooperate with His Body.

[quote]you know dust, I can not say whether or not you would lose your salvation...thats completely God's call.  but I would never bow down in front of a statue, or any other image of anyone, and pray to them to intercede for me.  I would never kiss a statue.  I would never do anything to detract from the rightful and holy position that ONLY Christ should and does have.[/quote]
All of these things you are so opposed to are not required practices of the Church. These behaviors that you describe are done by individual Catholics, and help them grow closer to Christ. The Church does not discourage practices that bring people closer to Christ--why would they? They're in the business of bringing the good news of Christ to the world--not blocking it.

[quote]Just be sure to NEVER lose sight of Christ as the first and only medaitor and redeemer we have.  Without whom there is no hope...[/quote]
Where does the Bible say that Christ is the [b]only[/b] mediator?

[quote]and praying to someone else other than Christ, even a dead saint, is a shaky thing to do[/quote]
Why?

[quote]..Saul tried to talk to Samuel, and look at what happened to him.[/quote]
Catholics don't try to talk to saints, man.

God bless.

[dUSt]

Lumberjack,

I honestly think that if you simply approached Catholic teaching at a different angle, you still might not agree with it, but at least you'd see the good in it.

For example, instead of approaching the topic of praying to saints like, "this is why praying to saints can cause someone to lose focus on Christ", why not approach it like, "how can praying to saints help someone grow closer to Christ"? Why not try to see the good in things first, instead of automatically dismissing it as something that would hinder your relationship with Christ?

Again--not trying to get you to agree--simply trying to get you to see the good in it.

[the lumberjack]

I do see the good brother, I just wouldn't want anything that could possibly get in the way to be there.

ok, you pray in front of statues to help "feel" closer to Christ. fine.

could not some catholics succumb to this "feeling" and keep praying to the saints instead of Christ like they should? could they not fall prey to some sick form of idolatry, relying on the saints to mediate for them, instead of Christ in His Holy Spirit, which is the only way it should be.

"and all things ye ask in MY name"...not Peter's name, not Mary's name...not anyone else's name...HIS name.

and as for Christ being the ONLY mediator we have,

"I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NOONE comes to the Father but by ME..."

"for there is one mediator between man and God..."

to intercede on someone's behalf is the job of the saints that are alive, in our world.

to ask a person that is on the other side of eternity to intercede for you would be like asking your neighbor to help you fix your car, over the phone.

or it would be like Peter asking Abraham to help him when he was drowning.

so I ask again, who says that the Catholic Church saints are in heaven? the Catholic Church? and if all these saints are in heaven, then what stops all other Christians from being in heaven? and if all other Christians are in heaven, then when exactly will the resurrection of Christ's second coming/the rapture to us prots, occur?

I really do see the good, brother, I just don't want the possibility of any of my catholic brethren to fall to these things.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote][b]LJ says:[/b]
you know dust, I can not say whether or not you would lose your salvation...thats completely God's call.  but I would never bow down in front of a statue, or any other image of anyone, and pray to them to intercede for me.  I would never kiss a statue.  I would never do anything to detract from the rightful and holy position that ONLY Christ should and does have.[/quote]

[quote][b]A Loving Gaze toward the Crucifix

Promise: After touching a crucifix devoutly, St. Gertrude learned that "... if anyone only looks at the image of the Cross of Jesus Christ with a holy intention, God rewards him with such goodness and mercy that he receives in his soul, as in a spotless mirror, an image which is so agreeable that the whole court of Heaven delights therein; and this serves to increase his eternal glory in the life to come in proportion as he has practiced this act of devotion in this life."[/b][/quote]

LJ the quote above confirms what dust said and what the Church Teaches. Statues and pictures help raise our minds and hearts to God what are called "Sacramentals". Like the above quote, it is the HOLY INTENTION behind the look and LOVING TOUCH, the love the remembering of His suffering, thats what they are used for to meditate, they raise our minds and hearts to God.

Don't forget Moses and the bronze serpents! [b]"Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover." "Moses accoordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered." (Numbers 21: 8-9)[/b] This of course was a prefirgurement of Christ, for Christ said [b]"And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so the must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life." (Jn. 3:14-15).[/b]

We do not think of the wood or the cloth or glass we think of what the picture says "devotion". When I look at a crucifix it reminds me of what Jesus did for me, each wound has a meaning to meditate upon. We are not thinking of the wood that makes it but the love behind the picture.

When you look at a picture of a loved one of yours your thoughts think of good times and bad times or sad times. See what I am saying samething say with a crucifix, our minds our brought to Christ.

God Bless
Jason