mulls Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='May 18 2004, 11:50 AM'] I apologize if this is old hat, but I would appreciate sincere and charitable answers from everyone. 1. Can Catholics be saved, and remain Catholic? 2. Can Catholics be saved, and believe everything the Catholic Church teaches? [/quote] before we go on, are you satisfied with the answers you received for your two original questions above? what do you think of them? what conclusions have you made from this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 dude calm down, am i allowed to think about my answers, or answer other people's questions as well? stop whistling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted May 20, 2004 Author Share Posted May 20, 2004 What I'm wondering, is whether evangelicals believe in absolute Truth. I still have not determined this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 [quote name='mulls' date='May 20 2004, 01:05 PM'] dUSt, my response was to the question of whether you can believe the things on the list and be saved. those 9 points. if you go down that list, and say "yes, i agree with #1....yes, i agree with #2....yes, i agree with #3....etc etc etc....is that what gets you to heaven? NO. that was my point. i wasn't talking about the Church. [/quote] Oh, I know. But I could say the same thing about this: 1. Accept Jesus as your personal savior I could take that list of one item, and say "yes, I agree with that". Is that what get's me to heaven? No. We both know that's there's a lot more that goes into that phrase than that. So my point was that you could apply your point to anything--so I just wanted to make it clear to the readers that it shouldn't be used as an indictment against Catholicism--which I understand was not your intent. It was just a very generic point, that's all. haha Because one could say, "I believe in everything the Church teaches", and if the truly [b]DO[/b] believe this, then we can be assured that they [b]will[/b] go to heaven. Because the Church teaches us exactly how to get there--through Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 what happened to the sin of presumption? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 his statement "will go to heaven" implies " that they continue to truly DO that till the end of their life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 [quote name='dUSt' date='May 20 2004, 11:55 AM'] Let me also ask it even more basically. If I believe in 100% of what the Catholic Church teaches (forget what is dogma, doctrine, optional, etc), which specific teaching would cause me to lose my salvation? [/quote] thats the thing dust, what IS dogma? what is doctrine? according to the definition given by likos, anything could be either one... but they're all just about equally "encouraged" or enforced. ---------- and CW, yes we believe in Absolute Truth...we're not all relativists with wacked out doctrine. I know Catholics that don't pray to the saints, or to Mary, or do any of the other things that are considered unbiblical by most noncatholics...and they cherish their walk with Christ. and hey, God bless them...I know that they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. so, I guess that if you count the Saints and Mary as something the Catholic Church teaches, then no, they don't believe everything. does this make them not catholic? I hope not...else why would they continue going to mass? God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted May 20, 2004 Author Share Posted May 20, 2004 [quote]else why would they continue going to mass?[/quote] Beats me. If evangelicals aren't relativists, then why do they believe different things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 hahahhaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted May 20, 2004 Author Share Posted May 20, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted May 20, 2004 Author Share Posted May 20, 2004 Let me rephrase the question... For all the variety of evangelical opinion, does every evangelical hold that his personal interpretation of the Bible is absolute Truth? If so, do evangelicals try to convert other evangelicals with different opinions? Do they do this the same way they do Catholics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 you haven't answered my questions yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 18 2004, 01:53 PM'] and as for the second one...hmmm...it depends on what you mean by what the Catholic Church "teaches"... are we talking confirmed doctrine...or any of the other dogma/teachings/decrees? because as of yet, I have yet to get a concise, clear list of what confirmed Catholic Church doctrine is, and what is just dogma/whatever else is... God bless. [/quote] Lumberjack, I gave you the dictionary definition of Doctrine, Dogma, and Development of Doctrine. What did you not understand? Let me know and I'll try again. As the dictionary explained, a dogma is a particular kind of doctrine -- but it also explained that the doctrines of the Church originate from other sources as well. All the teachings of the Church are "doctrines" but not all doctrines are "dogmas." All you need for a basic understanding of Catholicism is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, available at no charge on line. The CCC is a synopsis (summary) of the teaching of the Catholic Church -- Catholicism in a nutshell. You can read the CCC or look up a subject here: [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/[/url] If you want a list of dogmas, get a copy of Dr. Ludwig Ott's [i]Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.[/i] Another well-known, authoritative book is [i]The Sources of Catholic Dogma[/i] by Henry Denzinger. Both are quoted in the CCC. But the CCC is basically all you need. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 CW...hmm...we differ on some things...but our foundation of faith in Christ remains the same. the biggest one I can think of is speaking in tongues.... the Bible lays it out in 1 Corinthians 14 as to what should happen if someone is speaking in tongues, yet some brothers believe that what they have been taught is correct. so I talk to these brothers to let them know that speaking in tongues, as they have been taught, is not biblical...and that if they should want to continue doing it, they should do it according to God's word. ---------------- and Likos, I don't feel like swimming thru an ocean of paperwork just to find out what is dogma and what isn't dogma or doctrine... I have SOOOOO MUCH to still learn from the Bible, much less start trying to find out what the Catholic Church "OFFICIALLY" believes or not. but thank you anyway, brother. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted May 20, 2004 Author Share Posted May 20, 2004 It appears we have a difference of opinion here on this thread. Mulls says Catholic teaching can't undo salvation. LJ asks what the difference between doctrine and dogma is. Is this because you believe that it is possible for Catholic teaching to send a Catholic to hell? Or are you trying to establish that Catholicism is heretical? Either way, my questions still stand. Feel free to tell us whether or not we are heretics, or hellbound. I would love an honest answer. But I would still like to understand how evangelicals see differences of opinion, vis a vis an Absolute God and an Absolute Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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