A Question For Separated Brethren

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 20 2004, 01:25 PM'] i don't know, is the Christian faith about maintaining a checklist of beliefs? [/quote]
The Christian faith is about giving up your own life and following Jesus. It means picking up your cross, having faith in Him and in the pillar and foundation of Truth.

In that there are established doctrines and principals. See especially Jesus' sermon on the Mount.

Or are you suggesting it is impossible to know Truth beyond that "Jesus is Lord"?

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]see my above statement.

i don't see much on that list about having faith in Christ and following Him.[/quote]

As far as faith in Christ goes, see 1,3,4, and 5. As far as following him, wouldn't that come under believing in the commandments of God and of the Church?

[theculturewarrior]

But I'm still not getting an answer.

Yes or no? Can I believe the tenets on the list and be saved? Why? Why not?

[theculturewarrior]

Let me rephrase the question...would believing in the above tenets cause me to lose my salvation, go to hell, or be unsaved?

[Brother Adam]

I think the best summary is the Apostles Creed.


I believe in the Holy Catholic Church.

[mulls]

EDITED:


[quote]Yes or no? Can I believe the tenets on the list and be saved? Why? Why not? [/quote]


fine, than i'll say NO.


many people believe alot of those things, just as FACT.


"yeah, yeah, i know, of course Jesus died for my sins. of course the Church is right. of course there's a Trinity. of course i'm good enough to go to heaven."


i know too many people like that, and i myself used to think like that. that's not an active belief. where's the repentance? where's the personal decision to change and follow Christ?

Edited May 20, 2004 by mulls

[dUSt]

Let me also ask it even more basically.

If I believe in 100% of what the Catholic Church teaches (forget what is dogma, doctrine, optional, etc), which specific teaching would cause me to lose my salvation?

[mulls]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='May 20 2004, 01:48 PM'] Let me rephrase the question...would believing in the above tenets cause me to lose my salvation, go to hell, or be unsaved? [/quote]
NO.

having those beliefs won't undo your salvation.....as long as they don't take away your faith in Christ, which doesn't seem likely from that list.

if they did make you lose your salvation, i wouldn't consider bro. adam to be saved anymore, now that he's accepted those beliefs.

and that would be ridiculous.

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 20 2004, 12:51 PM'] "yeah, yeah, i know, of course Jesus died for my sins. of course the Church is right. of course there's a Trinity. of course i'm good enough to go to heaven."

i know too many people like that, and i myself used to think like that. that's not an active belief. where's the repentance? where's the personal decision to change and follow Christ? [/quote]
Mulls, I'm sure you're aware that the Church teaches these things. The Church teaches us to be repentant. The Church teaches us to change and follow Christ.

Your point is not against the Church, but in humanity in general regarding any faith system. Any religion will have it's fair share of people who have empty faith--people who follow the rules just to follow them, without ever truly seeking a deeper relationship with God. You cannot fairly fault the Church for this.

[Brother Adam]

I would have to agree with mulls,

The demons knew Christ was the Messiah, before any of us did. The demons know the Word of God, the demons probably know better than any of us what it means to be in the family of God.

But the demons will be in hell for eternity.

While these beliefs above are "correct" without application into our own lives, they are just "knowledge".

The Bible, and the Church is clear:

All those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those with faith in Christ that have been baptized into Christ are children of God. They are members of the New Covenant.

[mulls]

[quote name='dUSt' date='May 20 2004, 01:55 PM'] If I believe in 100% of what the Catholic Church teaches (forget what is dogma, doctrine, optional, etc), which specific teaching would cause me to lose my salvation? [/quote]
umm, the one on the bottom page 142 on the catechism.



i don't know man, is holding a wrong belief a sin? i don't know.


if it was a sin, is it one that Christ did not die for? of course not.

[theculturewarrior]

Thanks for your honest answer. My next question is, is Catholic doctrine heretical?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 20 2004, 12:23 PM'] #2 is wrong......who is good? [/quote]
those who respond to God's grace, and out of Love for Him feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. Those whom Jesus says He will say to: "well done, my Good and Faithful servant" as opposed to the bad people He will say: "depart from me for i did not know you" EVEN IF THEY SAY TO HIM LORD, LORD!


[quote]#6- what exactly are the "commandments" of the Church? does this call for another list?[/quote]
if i'm not mistaken, i believe that's refering to moral issues the Church clearly defines. This would include stuff that we could never really get a solid answer from scripture alone, like cloning or genetic engineering and stem cell research and you know, modern issues. This is basically the explanation of good Godly Christian morality, these would include such things as the following being wrong: abortion, contraception, sex outside marriage, masturbation, pornography, drug abuse, not going to Mass on Sunday, and many other things that are usually in the Bible whether it be implicit or explitly there. The Commandments of the Church thus be like, the Bible Commentary that only deals with what moral issues the Bible deals with. Basically, the Church's teachings on morality.

[quote]#7- ummm, was marriage a sacrament instituted by Christ?[/quote]
it was lifted to the status of a sacrament by His teaching especially His teaching against divorce. It existed before, but He instituted it as a sacrament

[quote]#9- how can we know what teaching is from God, and what isn't? or can we be sure without a doubt that all teaching is from God?[/quote]
If The Holy Apostolic Church teaches it, we are assured it is free from explicit heresy, in that it could never truly poison our faith. If the Holy Apostolic Church teaches it by an infallible manner as such manners have been defined, then we can be assured there is no error, not even a slight error, in the doctrine.

[mulls]

[quote name='dUSt' date='May 20 2004, 01:59 PM'] Mulls, I'm sure you're aware that the Church teaches these things. The Church teaches us to be repentant. The Church teaches us to change and follow Christ.

Your point is not against the Church, but in humanity in general regarding any faith system. Any religion will have it's fair share of people who have empty faith--people who follow the rules just to follow them, without ever truly seeking a deeper relationship with God. You cannot fairly fault the Church for this. [/quote]
dUSt,


my response was to the question of whether you can believe the things on the list and be saved. those 9 points.


if you go down that list, and say "yes, i agree with #1....yes, i agree with #2....yes, i agree with #3....etc etc etc....is that what gets you to heaven?


NO. that was my point. i wasn't talking about the Church.

[theculturewarrior]