A Question For Separated Brethren

[mulls]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='May 24 2004, 06:50 PM'] I was referring to the protestant denominations Mulls has joined.
[/quote]
so what exactly are you trying to say? that i'm apart of the enemy? make yourself clear.


and be careful of what you report to moderators, with some of the things that you've said, the tables could easily be turned on the other side.

[foundsheep]

Take it easy folks.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 24 2004, 06:55 PM']
and be careful of what you report to moderators, with some of the things that you've said, the tables could easily be turned on the other side. [/quote]
Name one. Point it out to me and I'll be glad to report myself to the moderators. Let them decide if I'm guilty as charged. Show me and the phorum where I have misquoted you or Lumberjack.

Peace be to you and to all.

JMJ Likos

[mulls]

that's not my intention, just please be as careful as you wish others to be.


and please clear up my above question.

[the lumberjack]

dusty,

first off, I was praying for you brother...that your day got better and that the Lord just comfort you and keep you in His peace. God bless you. second,

[quote]lumberjack,

You keep saying "I follow Christ"... Great! This is exactly why all of us Catholics are Catholic. We believe the Church is Christ's Body--the way He Himself instituted for us to come to Him.

When you say that you follow Christ, you'll get no argument from us. That's exactly what we're ALL trying to do. That's our common goal!

So, the real question that we're all asking, is how we know which is the best way to follow Christ. I hate to jump to extremes, but it illustrates my point best. Was David Koresh following Christ? Are the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses following Christ? What about the guy sitting in his living room watching porn, believing that he was "saved" back in '84, so has nothing to worry about anymore?

Let's follow Christ brother. That's exactly what we need to do to someday be neighbors in Heaven. God bless.[/quote]

how do we know...hmmm...well, comparing one's openess with their doctrine to the way they live their life, and the fruits that you behold from them...that would be a pretty good sign, though who would really know the drive in their heart. the Lord will shed alight on the vipers trying to harm His flock, and they will be struck down... David Koresh? you know he wasn't...neither was Jim Jones, "heaven's gate" or any of the other cults...they were antichrists, here to lead away the faithful and to deceive those that didn't know Christ...I wish to deceive no one, I wish to learn, to discuss, to correct, and to be corrected. and though you and the most of the rest of the Catholics here will probly never heed any of the words I post, I can only put down what the Lord has put on my heart...

as for the mormons and the JW's? I'm sure that they'll have a HUGE part in the eventual one world religion that's laid out in the Bible...in the last last days...and they WILL have their day of reckoning with the Lord as well.

God bless brother.

and btw, get vinyl!

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[quote]From what I have seen, evangelicals and indeed, most prots, easily go from denom to denom not because their aren't differences, but because they can reconcile the differences with their own "biblical" worldview. And they seem to do this by denying that absolute Truth can be known, or by accepting contrary inpterpretations. It strikes me as relativism.[/quote]

CW, first homie, till you experience what its like to go to my church and learn the way I do, lets not go off what we "see" unless you've got footage of something really wrong at my church...k? k..... moving on,

relativism...hmm... i can only come back to the most common and frequently encountered (by me) difference in doctrine...speaking in tongues. the bible says one thing, and yet they do another when they do it aloud, without an interpreter, or not according to the Scriptures.

or even how you pray in front of statues...

neither of these things will hinder either of you from entering heaven, though biblically, you're like a one legged man in a three legged race...almost, but not quite. now, don't get me wrong, I know I'm not perfect, but these are two of the biggest things out there I would have to say I'd overlook, so long as the brother or sister was following God. as I've said before, most of those brothers and sisters have realized that the Bible points out one thing while they were being taught another...but hey...its all good.

-------------

and likos...hmm...would you have me tarred and feathered? burnt at the stake? boiled in oil? original or extra crispy?

and you know, I have been known to be pretty egotistical...but most of the time, I'm pretty humble...I know I'm more humble that most of my friends...

there are absolutes...so relatively speaking, you're assuming that I'm just making my faith up as I go along...

God bless

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]relativism...hmm... i can only come back to the most common and frequently encountered (by me) difference in doctrine...speaking in tongues. the bible says one thing, and yet they do another when they do it aloud, without an interpreter, or not according to the Scriptures.
[/quote]

So you're saying protestants have a visible unity of doctrine (except for speaking in tongues)? That sounds like a lie! :angry: I have seen differences re: OSAS, the infallibility of the scriptures, the efficacy of baptism, the TRINITY, and EVEN PURGATORY!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 24 2004, 06:52 PM'][quote name='Katholikos']And, oh, regarding your comment to Good Friday, the Church is infallible not because she says so, but because Christ says so -- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Where does he say so?

Note to dUSt and mods: The above is a question, and thus cannot constitute Catholic vs. Catholic debate. Debate involves statements, I've not made any.[/quote]
to Add what Jason had already put, and not having a Catholic-Catholic debate just putting my two cents. Plus, this isnt directed to Good Friday just going off his question..Jesus puts the stress on the Church when He mentions bringing a sinner to the Church '...if he doesnt listen to EVEN The Church, throw him out as if a tax collector'. Of course im paraphrasing but it was similar to this. He used the Church as the last and most important resort in his teaching there.

Scripture calls the Church the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Notice it never says that the Scriptures are the Pillar of Truth.


But how do we know it was the Catholic Church?

In my humble opinion, I think this is the easiest to see.

Just a glimpse at the Early Church Fathers clears this up. Why cant they be Orthodox instead? Reading the Councils you can see that it was the Orthodox that left us.

I must note that besides the few issues I know about the Orthodox are still an Apostolic Church, there are only 2 in existance today - Catholic and Orthodox, each founded upon an Apostle, each teach similar things.

What gets me about some prots here is they think things like Infant Baptism, Real Presence, Confession, Theotokos and such are new and man made doctrines.
When in fact its always been the teachings. And the Orthodox Churchs believe the samethings as us.

Orthodox Churchs proclaim Mary as the Mother of God
They Confess to their Priests who grant them absolution
They believe Jesus is truely present in the Eucharist
They believe in Infant Baptism
They believe it is the CHURCH, not an individual, that has the Authority to Interpret Scriptures
They believe the Church is infallible in its teachings


Now I still believe that the Catholic Church is the One True Church, but the Orthodox Churchs are not that far off, only on a few things. They are not in Union with us as of now, but maybe they might come back and be full again in the Truth.

Its funny, and I bring this up, because almost all the prots I run into use the Orthodox against us, saying we left them and this and that..but what you all fail to realize is that the Orthodox are more similar to Catholics in our teachings than any prot would hope to be.

My point..Even looking at the Orthodox Church one can see that the Catholic Church's teachings have been around for 2000 years since they are pretty much the same. However, fast forward past 1500's and the 'New Kids on the Block', our protestant brothers and sisters, came up with a NEW way of thinking, a thinking called 'I can do it my way'..and its wrong and against what God wanted.

[Anna]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 24 2004, 05:38 PM'] I'm the enemy, eh?

whoa...I don't know if I should feel honored or insulted.

well, here's where your logic and judging is faulty, likos.

I serve Christ. -_-

..........

walk it as Christ guides you.

[/quote]
Feel embarassed.

This isn't about you, Lumberjack, though you seem to think it is, or would like it to be.

It's about Jesus Christ, His Truths, and the One True Church which He founded.

By Likos saying that mulls is running into the arms of Christ's enemies, he's saying that mulls is embracing errors rather than Truth....

...that is, unless he's been running into your arms lately, which, please...don't tell me...I don't wanna know....

Pax Christi. <><

[mulls]

[quote name='Anna' date='May 25 2004, 12:36 PM']
By Likos saying that mulls is running into the arms of Christ's enemies, he's saying that mulls is embracing errors rather than Truth....

...that is, unless he's been running into your arms lately, which, please...don't tell me...I don't wanna know....
[/quote]
oh no lumberjack, we've been caught!


our days of running into each others arms and making up our own infallible scripture interpretations (which are purely relative) seem to be coming to an end!!!



darn you phatmass.......darn you to heck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='May 25 2004, 08:22 AM']
So you're saying protestants have a visible unity of doctrine (except for speaking in tongues)? That sounds like a lie! :angry: I have seen differences re: OSAS, the infallibility of the scriptures, the efficacy of baptism, the TRINITY, and EVEN PURGATORY! [/quote]
I never said that there was a visible doctrine of unity...but the slight differences in most of the Protestant denominations (at least the one's that are out here), aren't so big that you can't go and fellowship with them.

if thats relativism, then sure, why not...but those brothers that have a solid doctrine, go to them and exhort them to correction.

as I've said, most people don't know that their beliefs have actual names/tags associated with them, so to say OSAS to them would be fruitless.

[Quietfire]

[quote]from lumberjack.....
and likos...hmm...would you have me tarred and feathered? burnt at the stake? boiled in oil? original or extra crispy?[/quote]



I prefer extra crispy myself...
Who's doing the cookin'?

Love ya like a bro, Lumber. No harm, just a bit of levity.


May I suggest please, that we ALL take a long step back and a few deep breaths.
No one here is the enemy. Really.
If you are hurt, its because you care. I can see that in every post in this thread.

Before someone says something to really do damage here, we need to do some damage control.

I'm tired of the bickering, and that's what this is starting to sound like. We wont get anywhere if we keep this up, except out of Phatmass land. And I for one, am not giving up my tacos, so very tasty and good for you, for anyone.

Please, Charity.

Peace and Love.
Dutchess Quietfire.

(cant take queenship...cmom
cant take princess...ice.
I get to be dutchess then, darnit. just for a week.)

[the lumberjack]

you're alright in my book Quietfire...

and its not too often that I get a little warm under the collar...for the most part, if I do post a retort to anything, its more comedic and I try to make it upbeat...like the quote.

----------

and mulls, that would be a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG run, brother... from Cali to UConn? whoa...

--hahahahaha

God bless.

dumbstruck the inlaw that wouldn't leave.

[mulls]

hey, if we can interpret scripture for ourselves, we can do anything!


haha




just a joke kids, b ez!

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 25 2004, 01:45 PM'] I never said that there was a visible doctrine of unity...but the slight differences in most of the Protestant denominations (at least the one's that are out here), aren't so big that you can't go and fellowship with them.

if thats relativism, then sure, why not...but those brothers that have a solid doctrine, go to them and exhort them to correction.

as I've said, most people don't know that their beliefs have actual names/tags associated with them, so to say OSAS to them would be fruitless. [/quote]
Let's examine those "slight differences" among Protestant denominations:

Sola Scriptura insists that "All things necessary for ... man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture" (Westminster Confession). This means that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura itself must be found in the Bible -- but it isn't.

If "all things necessary . . . are expressly set down in scripture, or ... may be deduced from Scripture," why are there thousands of Protestant denominations with thousands of different answers to the same questions?

Protestant denominations, all claiming to be "led by the Holy Spirit to all truth" give different answers to the following questions (and many more!):

What did Jesus mean when He declared at the Last Supper "this is my body ...this is my blood..." (cf Mt 26:26-28)?

What is the nature of Jesus' presence in Holy Communion, if any?

How often (if ever) should a Christian celebrate the Last Supper or receive Communion?

In the celebration of the Last Supper, should we use unleavened bread and wine? or crackers and grape juice? or Wonder Bread and water? Or chocolate milk and donuts (I kid you not!), Or . . .

What is the Nature of God as revealed by the Scriptures?

Was Jesus God? And did He know it?

Who/what is the Holy Spirit? What does it mean to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit"? Is such a "baptism" necessary and how does it come about?

Where in the Bible does it say the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity? Or where does it say the Holy Spirit is even a Person?

Where in the Bible does it say that the Son is consubstantial with the Father?

What happens to a soul after death?

What are the saints in heaven able to do, if anything? What kind of relationship with the saints should a Christian have, if any?

How is one saved? Can one be "unsaved"? If so, does that mean he only thought he was saved when, in fact, he was never saved at all?

Are we "dunghills covered with snow" as Luther taught, meaning that we're only coated with a covering of righteousness after we "get saved"? Or are we filled with the Divine Life of God as the Catholic Church teaches? Or neither?

Should we be baptized for the dead? (2 Cor 15:29)

Did God "predestine" (pre-determine) who would be saved and who would not?

Are we saved by faith alone? Then what did James mean when he wrote "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone"?

What did Paul mean when he wrote "stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess 2:5 RSV), if everything we need to know is contained in the Bible?

Does the Bible allow remarriage after a divorce?

Should women preach and pastor churches?

Will there be a "Rapture"? Of so, will it be pre-millennial or post-millennial? When will it happen?

Are we living in the "end times"?

How are worship services to be structured? Church leadership?

Should babies be baptized?

How many "sacraments" or "ordinances" are there and what do they accomplish, if anything?

Do I need to be baptized to go to heaven?

Do I need to confess my sins to a priest? A pastor? Someone else?

Is abortion okay? Contraception? Homosexual marriages? Euthanasia?

Is is okay to have a drink? Play cards? Dance? Go to casinos?

What does it mean to "accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior"? What do I do? What does He do?

Is salvation permanent, or can we lose it?

What's the definition of salvation?

Whose Bible should we use? Marciòn? Catholic (73 books)? Protestant 66 books)? Ethiopian Orthodox (81 books)? Some other Bible? There are many to choose from. Which is the Word of God? How do you know?

Enough, already. But there's plenty more!

[Anna]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 25 2004, 03:44 PM'] oh no lumberjack, we've been caught!


our days of running into each others arms and making up our own infallible scripture interpretations (which are purely relative) seem to be coming to an end!!!



darn you phatmass.......darn you to heck!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: