A Question For Separated Brethren

[the lumberjack]

I'm the enemy, eh?

whoa...I don't know if I should feel honored or insulted.

well, here's where your logic and judging is faulty, likos.

I serve Christ. -_-

and though I don't subscribe to the teachings that I think are wrong in the Catholic Church, you can't stop my beliefs or my faith or my continuing increase in the Lord and knowledge and wisdom...which I accredit somewhat to the wonderful people here at Phatmass.

were it not for questions, I would not dig and read and learn...but hey, you got your way, and I got mine.

walk it as Christ guides you.

God bless.

Christ first and only.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Katholikos']It IS true that the Catholic Church's interpretation is infallible, and her teaching authority as well.[/quote]
Why?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='May 21 2004, 12:30 PM'] I apologize if this is old hat, but it sounds as if each man is his own infallible interpreter. [/quote]
Quite right, Culture Warrior. It may be old hat to some, but it's old truth. And its name is RELATIVISM.

Protestants are required to figure out for themselves what the Scriptures teach, with the assurance that the Holy Spirit is leading each one of them individually to 'all truth.' Or, they can accept what God supposedly revealed to their pastor or denomination as the truth, so they don't have to go searching for themselves. But if they don't agree with their pastor, that's okay. Because all denominations are true, it's just a matter of degree. Except what the Catholics teach, of course. That 100% wrong.


Relativism is so strong that Protestants can swing from one denomination to another with the greatest of ease. A denomination's doctrines are less important that its social programs and the dynamism of the pastor. If he preaches good sermons (i.e., if he tells me what I want to hear), and if the food at the men's club meetings is good, that's enough for me. Doctrine is not as important to the man in the pews as the fellowship. Let the pastor worry about 'truth.'

Ex-Southern Baptist - Likos

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Relativism is so strong that Protestants can swing from one denomination to another with the greatest of ease. A denomination's doctrines are less important that its social programs and the dynamism of the pastor. If he preaches good sermons (i.e., if he tells me what I want to hear), and if the food at the men's club meetings is good, that's enough for me. Doctrine is not as important to the man in the pews as the fellowship. Let the pastor worry about 'truth.'[/quote]

WHAT?!

hahaha

if relativism is so "strong"...how would that make it easy to swing from denom to denom? wouldn't relativism make it harder?

social programs and dynamism of the pastor?

hahaha...sorry man, my pastor doesn't tell us anything near what we want to hear [url="http://www.therocksandiego.org"]the rock san diego[/url] , but hey, if that helps you sleep better and leave you convinced that all protestants are of the devil, ok...sure.

doctrine is absolutely essential...I don't know where you are from and allow me to apologize for the suburban religious social clubs, which are located everywhere, and in EVERY denom, including Catholicism...but hey, some people don't deal well with the truth.

I do pray for you likos.

God bless.

--------

oh, and Good Friday, ultimately...its because they say so.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]if relativism is so "strong"...how would that make it easy to swing from denom to denom? wouldn't relativism make it harder?
[/quote]

From what I have seen, evangelicals and indeed, most prots, easily go from denom to denom not because their aren't differences, but because they can reconcile the differences with their own "biblical" worldview. And they seem to do this by denying that absolute Truth can be known, or by accepting contrary inpterpretations. It strikes me as relativism.

Edited May 24, 2004 by theculturewarrior

[dUSt]

lumberjack,

You keep saying "I follow Christ"... Great! This is exactly why all of us Catholics are Catholic. We believe the Church is Christ's Body--the way He Himself instituted for us to come to Him.

When you say that you follow Christ, you'll get no argument from us. [b]That's exactly what we're ALL trying to do.[/b] That's our common goal!

So, the real question that we're all asking, is [b]how[/b] we know which is the best way to [b]follow Christ.[/b] I hate to jump to extremes, but it illustrates my point best. Was David Koresh following Christ? Are the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses following Christ? What about the guy sitting in his living room watching porn, believing that he was "saved" back in '84, so has nothing to worry about anymore?

Let's follow Christ brother. That's exactly what we need to do to someday be neighbors in Heaven. God bless.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 24 2004, 03:58 PM']
WHAT?!

hahaha

if relativism is so "strong"...how would that make it easy to swing from denom to denom?  wouldn't relativism make it harder?

social programs and dynamism of the pastor?

hahaha...sorry man, my pastor doesn't tell us anything near what we want to hear [url="http://www.therocksandiego.org"]the rock san diego[/url] , but hey, if that helps you sleep better and leave you convinced that all protestants are of the devil, ok...sure.

doctrine is absolutely essential...I don't know where you are from and allow me to apologize for the suburban religious social clubs, which are located everywhere, and in EVERY denom, including Catholicism...but hey, some people don't deal well with the truth.

I do pray for you likos.

God bless.

--------

oh, and Good Friday, ultimately...its because they say so.[/quote]
Lumberjack, this is to help you understand:

[b][i]RELATIVISM: any theory of knowledge, truth, or morality, etc., holding that criteria of judgment may vary with individuals and their environments.[/i][/b]

[Jay's explanation: With relativism, there are no absolutes. One culture, God, religion, country, philosophy, doctrine, worldview, moral system, whatever, is as good as any other. What's true for you may not be true for me, and my truth and yours, though antithetical, are equally "true." Everything is "true" or "good" or "useful" or whatever, relative to the POV of the individuals and their environments who are making the judgment, and their numbers are limitless. Therefore, there is no Capital "T" Truth.]

Lumberjack, You constantly misquote me. I challenge you to produce my statement that "Protestants are of the devil." I'm going to report you to the moderators every time you do this until you stop it -- or the mods stop you -- whichever comes first. Quote me accurately, using my own words, or don't quote me at all! This is malicious, slanderous, and immature behavior.

You can save your breath praying for me, Lumberjack. I was "born again" the Protestant way (which is not the biblical way) and I'm covered under OSAS (which is Martin Luther's invention), so my salvation is guaranteed, don'tchaknow?

And, oh, regarding your comment to Good Friday, the Church is infallible not because she says so, but because Christ says so -- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos (Jay)

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 24 2004, 03:38 PM'] I'm the enemy, eh?

whoa...I don't know if I should feel honored or insulted.

well, here's where your logic and judging is faulty, likos.

I serve Christ.  -_-

and though I don't subscribe to the teachings that I think are wrong in the Catholic Church, you can't stop my beliefs or my faith or my continuing increase in the Lord and knowledge and wisdom...which I accredit somewhat to the wonderful people here at Phatmass.

were it not for questions, I would not dig and read and learn...but hey, you got your way, and I got mine.

walk it as Christ guides you.

God bless.

Christ first and only. [/quote]
Lumberjack,

Your egocentrism is showing. I was referring to the protestant denominations Mulls has joined.

Have you had this unfortunate inability to comprehend English all during your school years, or is it a condition that just recently developed?

JMJ Likos

Edited May 24, 2004 by Katholikos

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Katholikos']And, oh, regarding your comment to Good Friday, the Church is infallible not because she says so, but because Christ says so -- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Where does he say so?

Note to dUSt and mods: The above is a question, and thus cannot constitute Catholic vs. Catholic debate. Debate involves statements, I've not made any.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 24 2004, 05:52 PM'] [quote name='Katholikos']And, oh, regarding your comment to Good Friday, the Church is infallible not because she says so, but because Christ says so -- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Where does he say so?

Note to dUSt and mods: The above is a question, and thus cannot constitute Catholic vs. Catholic debate. Debate involves statements, I've not made any. [/quote]
[quote][b] Matthew 16: 15-19
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

[u]And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/u]

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [/b][/quote]

You have never seen this?

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Jason']And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/quote]
What evidence is there that the Catholic Church is the church Jesus was talking about? Why not the Eastern Orthodox Church? Why does his statement = infallibility?

[Livin_the_MASS]

By this statement:

[b]"and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."[/b]

Christ founded One Church notice in this statement:

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock [b]I will build my church[/b], and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

It is His Church and we have over 2000 years to prove it ALL THE WAY

Much Love
In their Hearts
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

Note to everyone: I use big bold for things to stand out, I'm not screaming haha

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Jason']"and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."[/quote]
But why does that mean infallibility?

[quote name='Jason']It is His Church and we have over 2000 years to prove it[/quote]
Isn't the Eastern Orthodox Church also 2,000 years old? How do we know it's not the church Jesus was talking about?

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]But why does that mean infallibility?[/quote]

Think about it, is there any other Church that has stood by their teachings? No! There is not one, if they don't like it they build another one. The main thing is they deny the True Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, Plus it has to be done by a Catholic Priest. In the 1600 it was the lack of faith in the Eucharist that caused the great split
Christ is making a promise that HIS Church [b]not more than one church[/b][u] just "HIS CHURCH" HE said![/u] Than He says evil will not prevail against HIS CHURCH, if this is not clear here look at the time line



[quote]Isn't the Eastern Orthodox Church also 2,000 years old? How do we know it's not the church Jesus was talking about?[/quote]

What a topic The Holy Father has called them the other lung of the Church I will let you dwell on that! You don't already know about this?