Bride Of Christ

[Laurie]

I am sorry my contributions aren't up to par :( But as you know this is a web forum and not a private space. Could you explain why you believe being "mystically espoused to Christ and dedicated to the service of the Church" is identical to the espousal of a human married couple? Can you define what you believe the Church means when she says mystical espousal? Definitely she doesn't mean "not real" but by using this adjective, isn't she defining the form of espousal CVs experience in a unique way?

 

Maggie, we now have two threads devoted to this topic. I've skimmed the other every few days. I noticed there are PLENTY of people there insisting that thread keep to a certain tone & style. I therefore think it entirely appropriate for me to give my opinion and ask for the same thing. You can take it or leave it. But that's my position.

 

In my opinion, any post that swoops in to criticize, without offering anything substantive in return, is not up to par. A number of us have stated repeatedly that we are trying to have a certain kind of dialogue here. Not everyone wanted that dialogue. So another thread was started. Great! Why can't we now try to respect the aim of each thread and not pop by just to say, "You are wrong," without making the effort to contribute to the relevant discussion and the way it is being discussed, on each thread.

 

As for your specific questions: No, I can't! I can't explain a position to you that I don't hold. If you think I maintain that mystical marriage to Christ and marriage to a mortal man are IDENTICAL, then you haven't read my posts.

 

I spent a good deal of time quoting relevant theologians (sacrament versus sacramental). I gave a lenghly possible exposition on the many meanings "real" could have (using Aquinas and analogy).

 

When Canon Law & the CCC define something in clear language, and then other Church documents, and Cardinal Burke, and Sharon Holland, and many theologians, such as the one I'll post (again!) below (and the many found on the USACV website), make it clear that the CV really and truly is espoused to Christ, then that is something  those of us seeking to understand this vocation should pay attention to.

 

You can quibble that she can't be, because the consecration isn't a sacrament, but that's something you are going to have to take up with the Magisterium.

 

People can also dismiss theologians (like the Carthusians and Benedictines who have authored items on the USACV website), or the Dominican below, or Sr. Holland, and Cardinal Burke (who is a canon lawyer, and a theologian, and a philospher, BTW) but then they are going to have fill the void that is created by dismissing these many experts with something other than his/her personal opinion.

 

If someone wants to say, well, none of those people were writing authoritative documents for the Church when they gave their opinions, so I don't have to take it seriously, well, you're right. You don't! But no one else who has a genuinely educated outlook is going to take that person seriously then, either.

 

Again:

 

“Virginity,” by Rev. Pierre-Thomas Camelot, OP (New Catholic Encyclopedia,  2^nd edition, 2003, though it looks like this article was unchanged from the 1967, 1^st edition):

 

"If Christian marriage is the sacred sign (sacramentum) of the union of Christ and the Church, consecrated virgins attain to something beyond the sign and are in immediate contact with the holy reality, of which marriage is the sign. In them is realized the nuptial union of Christ and the Church. This doctrine is expressed with exactness in the preface of the consecration of virgins in the Roman Pontifical, which employs the terms of the Leonine Sacramentary alluded to above.

 

Thus the ecclesial significance of consecrated virginity is clear. We would demean it if we were to consider it only under its utilitarian aspect, and see the virgin as renouncing marriage simply to devote herself more efficaciously to charitable or apostolic works. Virginity is best seen in the mystery of the Church, which is at the same time virgin and spouse (cf. 2 Cor 11.2; Eph5.25–27). In the Church, the virgin spouse of Christ is the visible sign of this mystery. This is the most profound meaning of consecrated virginity in the Church, and through it, the virgin participates in maternal fecundity of the Church (St. Augustine)."

 

That makes it clear what "mystical" means. That means if someone wants to hold (against the preponderance of evidence, Church documents, and experts) that this vocation does not entail really being espoused to Christ, and that this being espoused to Christ is not brought about by the very Rite of Consecration promulgated by the Church for this end, they are going to have to prove it.

 

Just saying "I think X" doesn't get us far if X is simply a personal opinion/emotion/wish/long held idea that isn't based on much.
 

[Laurie]

Here's an advisory opinion from a religous sister who is a canon lawer:

 

Here's an advisory opinion from a religious sister who is a canon lawyer:

 

Roman Replies & Canon Law Society of America Advisory Opinions 1993

“CANON 604: PREVIOUSLY MARRIED PERSON BECOMING A CONSECRATED VIRGIN”

Vol. 1,  pp. 48-50, Catherine C. Darcy, R.S.M., J.C.D.

 

Canon 604 provides for the continued celebration of this 1970 Rite of Consecration. The canon underscores the element of mystical betrothal to Christ. In addition to the traditional marital symbolism of the union of Christ with the Church, there is an additional level of meaning present. Not only does the consecration of a virgin symbolize the union of Christ with the Church, but a sacred union of the virgin with Christ comes into being.

[Laurie]

Sorry, people, for all of the typos, all of the time!

[BarbTherese]

Catholic Catechism:

796 The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.²³⁴ The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."²³⁵The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.²³⁶The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.²³⁷ "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."²³⁸ He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:²³⁹

 

This is the whole Christ, head and body, one formed from many . . . whether the head or members speak, it is Christ who speaks. He speaks in his role as the head (ex persona capitis) and in his role as body (ex persona corporis). What does this mean? "The two will become one flesh. This is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and the Church."²⁴⁰ And the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."²⁴¹ They are, in fact, two different persons, yet they are one in the conjugal union, . . . as head, he calls himself the bridegroom, as body, he calls himself "bride."²⁴²

 

Edited August 13, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

Further research would seem to indicate to me that ontological change into the spousal relationship takes place at Baptism which does fit in with what the CCC states as in my previous post here: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/?p=2615623

 

http://stpaulsparish.org/education/documents/ontological_change.pdf

The categorization about which you are asking is:

– the Sacraments which produce an ontological change in a person: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders

– the Sacraments which provide grace for the support, strengthening, and development of the new life

and being created by this ontological change: Eucharist, Reconciliation (Penance), Unction of the Sick,

Matrimony

Ontology is the “study and analysis of what something is.” This definition was expanded by the 20th Century

philosopher Martin Heidegger’s “existential analysis” to include the study of human existence. Thus an “ontological

change” is a change in what someone is and the nature of his/her existence.

The Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders, when validly administered, produce an objective,

permanent, systemic change in what a person is and the nature of his/her existence.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[abrideofChrist]

How delightful, BarbaraTherese.  People are part of the Bride of Christ through baptism!  I am glad you are finally realizing that and could bring a quote to that effect.  Now, we just need to bring a quote that shows how a woman is made into a bride of Christ through the ministry of the Bishop.  Oh!  Silly me.  That was provided by Laurie who quoted the Rite, the Catechism, and Canon Law.  Now that that is settled, let's move on in the discussion, shall we?

 

With regard to ontological changes, it is quite an improvement that at least people are starting to realize that other Sacraments besides the ones with a permanent mark produce ontological changes.  If you would kindly re-read the USACV materials, perhaps you will discover language which shows that the Church considers the change in the CV similar to the Sacramental ones but done via a sacramental vs. Sacrament.  Again, my congratulations upon your valuable discovery.

[BarbTherese]

How delightful, BarbaraTherese.  People are part of the Bride of Christ through baptism!  I am glad you are finally realizing that and could bring a quote to that effect.  Now, we just need to bring a quote that shows how a woman is made into a bride of Christ through the ministry of the Bishop.  Oh!  Silly me.  That was provided by Laurie who quoted the Rite, the Catechism, and Canon Law.  Now that that is settled, let's move on in the discussion, shall we?

 

With regard to ontological changes, it is quite an improvement that at least people are starting to realize that other Sacraments besides the ones with a permanent mark produce ontological changes.  If you would kindly re-read the USACV materials, perhaps you will discover language which shows that the Church considers the change in the CV similar to the Sacramental ones but done via a sacramental vs. Sacrament.  Again, my congratulations upon your valuable discovery.

Thank you.

 

I always knew that logically, baptism had to initiate one into a spousal relationship with Jesus, simply because The Church is The Bride of Christ - and The Church is her membership.  But I could never find a supporting quote that was sufficiently sound and reliable as to be uncontestable.  I fell over the quote last night researching something entirely different.  A sort of “What was that!” experience and then going back hoping to find it again as I had just glanced at it in passing  looking for something else entirely.

 

I suspect only that you have your ‘tongue in your cheek’ and I am laughing after a re read of your post (I am writing this into Word for obvious reasons i.e. problems experienced on Phatmass and losing a post written with Phatmass timing out/getting knocked out completely).

 

I have moved on in reading matter and researching from this thread, unless of course I have another “What was that!” type of experience.  I have an appointment with my priest religious and superior of his Order spiritual director today and he has instructed me to write a Rule of Life for Bethany.  Astoundingly, it was completed very quickly from notes jotted here and there as I went about my days.  I sat down for an hour or so to start to make some logical flow of those notes and all just fell into place amazingly quickly.  The Rule has my primary focus I hope today and later this afternoon my appointment with my director - I though I was going to have to tell him that he will have to wait some time for The Rule, not having the time I thought to write one.  Our God of The Surprise and Hide and Seek. 

 

However, I have a Bipolar mind which is continually, almost, on the go and on various subjects.  Now and then, The Lord is generous with His Grace, I am actually entirely focused and over varying periods in length and totally unable to multi-task.  I don't get concerned, The Lord is in the driver's seat.

 

I have put the quote from the CCC into my files for future reference if needed.

 

Fraternally always............Barb :)

[BarbTherese]

My primary interest is of course insight into my own vocation – “Bethany” – or Bethanite it has occurred to me.  Anyone interested in finding out what it is all about can click onto the following links and comment in those links.  The Rule of Life mentioned in my previous post is the Rule of Life for Bethany which my director (priest religious and superior in his Order with experience in leadership including Novice Master) had asked me to write.

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130206-taking-the-faith-to-the-streets/page-1

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130346-religious-type-of-way-of-life-for-single-celibate-only-lay-women/

 

I do desire to have a working knowledge of The Church generally and this includes the various vocations of course.  This is partly my response to The Church’s urgings and to the laity to become evangelizers.  I have theories about this formation into evangelizers, one of which is knowledge of our subject i.e. The Church and Jesus who founded Her and is The Head of His Mystical Body, The Church, and our King, for one title only.

[Ima Lurker]

My primary interest is of course insight into my own vocation – “Bethany” – or Bethanite it has occurred to me.  Anyone interested in finding out what it is all about can click onto the following links and comment in those links.  The Rule of Life mentioned in my previous post is the Rule of Life for Bethany which my director (priest religious and superior in his Order with experience in leadership including Novice Master) had asked me to write.

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130206-taking-the-faith-to-the-streets/page-1

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130346-religious-type-of-way-of-life-for-single-celibate-only-lay-women/

 

I do desire to have a working knowledge of The Church generally and this includes the various vocations of course.  This is partly my response to The Church’s urgings and to the laity to become evangelizers.  I have theories about this formation into evangelizers, one of which is knowledge of our subject i.e. The Church and Jesus who founded Her and is The Head of His Mystical Body, The Church, and our King, for one title only.

 

I laughed at ABC's cheeky humor as well. I think she must be British who are famous for their dry humor... 

 

I really like what you have to say. I was wondering if you would be interested in starting a new thread where this is more closely examined? I would love to hear your thoughts on the common priesthood as well. As a wife and mother, I think this could be helpful for me and others who want to explore the differences and similarities between consecrated lay persons and well, the common baptized children of God! :) People who do not receive an outward consecration to virginity or priesthood. I think you're on to the theology of lay life, something we could all study up on! Since you have researched so much on consecrated life, could you also talk about the priesthood, and how we're to exercise our royal priesthood. Since this thread is about consecrated life, it might be less confusing for some of us to have separate threads exploring separate thoughts. It's just a thought but one I thought my prove useful? 

 

If you have time, that is. 

 

And Laurie, it was your suggestion to read the 400 page document that inspired me to start, that and having a theologian friend to make sure I'm on the right page. Your thoughts have been so insightful. And your kindness to me is truly appreciated! :) 

 

Thank you and God bless!

[BarbTherese]

I laughed at ABC's cheeky humor as well. I think she must be British who are famous for their dry humor... 

 

I really like what you have to say. I was wondering if you would be interested in starting a new thread where this is more closely examined? I would love to hear your thoughts on the common priesthood as well. As a wife and mother, I think this could be helpful for me and others who want to explore the differences and similarities between consecrated lay persons and well, the common baptized children of God! :) People who do not receive an outward consecration to virginity or priesthood. I think you're on to the theology of lay life, something we could all study up on! Since you have researched so much on consecrated life, could you also talk about the priesthood, and how we're to exercise our royal priesthood. Since this thread is about consecrated life, it might be less confusing for some of us to have separate threads exploring separate thoughts. It's just a thought but one I thought my prove useful? 

 

If you have time, that is. 

 

And Laurie, it was your suggestion to read the 400 page document that inspired me to start, that and having a theologian friend to make sure I'm on the right page. Your thoughts have been so insightful. And your kindness to me is truly appreciated! :)

 

Thank you and God bless!

 

Just back from my spiritual director, a needed coffee at my side.  My appt with Father went well, very well indeed. 

 

 

I really like what you have to say. I was wondering if you would be interested in starting a new thread where this is more closely examined? I would love to hear your thoughts on the common priesthood as well.

 

A discussion on the Apostolate of The Laity (APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM) might do it. Probably in Transmundane or the Spirituality forum. I wont have time to do it I don't think for a while, hard to tell.  You could always start one.

 

As a wife and mother, I think this could be helpful for me and others who want to explore the differences and similarities between consecrated lay persons and well, the common baptized children of God! :)

 

 

I am not a consecrated lay person (consecrated life in Canon Law).  I am fully in the laity in secular life in every way.  There is no difference (insofar as my personal vocation is concerned) from the most common vocation of the baptised children of God, be they married or in single chaste celibacy.  Being under private vows to the evangelical counsels and with a Rule of Life now written awaiting Father's approval, I live daily a very specific Gospel based way of life.  But my vocation and call is to the lay state in secular life, just as with all those baptised in the lay state of life; therefore in the lay state and outside of Holy Orders and Canonically Consecrated Life.

 

People who do not receive an outward consecration to virginity or priesthood.

 

 

Non canonical consecration or a self dedication/consecration.  Vita Consecrata (The Consecrated Life) http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_25031996_vita-consecrata_en.html terms a private dedication/consecration  a "special consecration".  There are many forms of private dedication/consecration ("special consecration") to God - not only to the evangelical counsels.

 

I think you're on to the theology of lay life, something we could all study up on!

 

 

 I can run with that.  It is almost my constant study.  But understanding all the vocations in The Church gives one insight into The Church overall and also one's own vocation no matter what it might be. The Church at the moment is making a consistent appeal to the laity especially to be evangelisers.  To evangelise about Jesus, His Gospel and His Church we need to understand the subject we are addressing or might be asked to adddress, for one very important point only.  "Why do....(insert here some aspect of Catholicism).......?" can be a very common question from those to whom we might be talking, very common question indeed.

 

Since you have researched so much on consecrated life, could you also talk about the priesthood, and how we're to exercise our royal priesthood. Since this thread is about consecrated life, it might be less confusing for some of us to have separate threads exploring separate thoughts. It's just a thought but one I thought my prove useful? 

 

 

 I entered religious life twice in my journey to date and this has informed my vocation now.  I entered in my teens and again in my forties.   I gave (with some others) a 30 minute address on "Women's Role in The Church" some years back to an assembly here in Adelaide. There was a panel present (which included our Archbishop) to ask any questions after each address.   Addresses were given in each state in Australia. The talks were videotaped and a book later produced by the Australian Catholic Bishops' Conference, launched in Canberra ACT (Australian Capital Territory).

 

 I think you will find all your answers in either

• The Apostolate of The Laity http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html  
•  
• or The Constitution of The Church (Lumen Gentium) http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

Vita Consecrata (already quoted above with link) may be helpful as well as the Catholic Catechism specifically those areas directly concerning the laity - these two links would guide you as a start:

 

• http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=laity&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
• http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=lay&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

[BarbTherese]

I really like what you have to say. I was wondering if you would be interested in starting a new thread where this is more closely examined

 

 

Started a thread in Transmundane although I don't know if it is quite what you were thinking of i.e. the subject.  It will either catch on or simply die a natural death. At best, I suspect, a bit of both.

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/130757-discussion-lumen-gentium-the-mystery-of-the-church/

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't know if this makes sense, but... it seems like it's important to look into when ontological change occurs.

 

Specifically, if it occurs ONLY in the Sacraments, or in other cases too.

 

 

[Ima Lurker]

Maybe I can help you with this one? 

 

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/?p=2610153 in response to your question earlier about the changes of a CV

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/?p=2610167 direct q&a regarding ontological change in a CV

 

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/?p=2610171 useful quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church helping us to understand the change better.

 

ABC also answered your question on ontological change in post 103: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122838-bride-of-christ/?p=2610177

 

 

I've been re reading the posts as a refresher. I can't believe how much I've learned just from reading this thread! :D I hope this helps you, MLF, and that I'm not just wasting your time repeating so much here. I think it was your questions and several others who really got some to delve deep into the books for the answers and I'm really grateful for that! Truly my gain... ;) 

 

Peace and prayers! 

[God's Beloved]

MARIALIS -CULTUS

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

 

This Apostolic Exhortation speaks much of the theology of Consecrated virginity in relation to Mary and the Church.

[Laurie]

Blessings, Liturgical (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2^nd edition)

[L. J. JOHNSON & J. R. QUINN]

 

“Types of Blessings. Among the Church’s sanctifying actions some constitute a person or object to service in the Church. These are known as constitutive blessings and result in a permanent deputation to worship. Some constitutive blessings are more solemn than others, indicated by the use of the holy oils in their celebration; these are called consecrations in contra-distinction to simple constitutive blessings. The consecration of an altar, a church, or a chalice are examples of this same type of blessings for objects.

 

In addition to these there are many blessings that call on God to bless the persons who make use of objects or who are in certain needs. In these the person or object is not permanently changed. They are known as invocative blessings. The prayers seeking God's protection for a home or a sick person are of this class. Since the blessings she imparts consist primarily in her impetration, these (blessings) are what one means first of all in speaking of her sacramentals. The term is used in a secondary sense of the objects to which she gives her blessing.”

 

Note that invocative blessings are distinguished from constitutive blessings (the consecration of a virgin is a constitutive blessing) because invocative blessings do not bring about a permanent change in the person or object. It logically follows that constitutive blessings do bring about a permanent change in the person.