Bride Of Christ

[AccountDeleted]

I am sorry that you feel the tone is offensive to Christians.  Is there something about the fact that it is a matter of dogma that the state of celibacy is superior to the state of marriage that is unChristian?  (Cf. Council of Trent, Catechism of the Catholic Church, and Vita Consecrata) 

 

If you relied upon Anneline to reliably transmit my thoughts on the subject via her latest and only post in the 23 pages, then I'm afraid she really goofed up on this one.  She substantially mischaracterized what I said, and others are now feeling freer to jump into the bandwagon of criticizing things I never stated.  I never said that the vocation of consecrated virginity is superior to that of enclosed nuns.  I never said that a virgin is holier than a non-virgin.  I never said that the souls' relationship to God was not spousal (look at ALL the clarifications I made with regard to Dubays 4 categories).  She implies that this was my position and attacks it.  I get it. 22 pages is long and can be hard to wade through.  But I made VERY important distinctions and I have spent a LONG time making them.  It is UNFAIR and UNJUST to skim something and criticize something severely because of the said skimming.
 

 

 

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ³⁵ By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. John 13:34-35

[Laurie]

Ok, I'm going to request that the moderators move this thread to the debate table. Hopefully that will quell the need for others to chime in saying ABC isn't representing consecrated life well, or that she is bitter and hostile, or that she is a noisy, clanging symbol without love. I personally think that is harsh and uncalled for.

 

It is one thing to say you don't like the tone, or don't like certain arguments, or that you don't think a topic is helpful. It is one thing to criticize someone's approach, and even the way she says something

 

It's quite another to make comments about someone's intentions and the way she lives out her vocation.

 

It sounds like the best compromise here is to get the thread moved, so that those who don't want to see it in Vocation Station don't have to, and the rest of us can continue investigating ways in which the CV vocation can be explained and clarified.

 

I'll ping a moderator now. I'm hoping it can be shifted without losing all of the helpful content that has been built up on this thread so far.

 

 

[Laurie]

Message has been sent to the moderator who was most recently logged into Phatmass. I asked that the thread & its content be moved to the Debate Table. We'll see!

 

 

[Sister Marie]

The analogy I keep thinking of when I read the venom on this thread towards myself, is that it is analagous to the venom directed towards the Church for supposedly saying that gay people are going to hell.  The Church doesn't say that a gay person is going to hell, but that a person who sins  with full knowledge that homosexuality is seriously sinful will go to hell if they die unrepentant.  There's a huge difference, isn't there?  It's in the nuances of what the Church actually says vs. what some people want to say the Church says.  I do not think there would be such an uproar if people carefully read what it was that I actually said.  If this is too much work, then please, don't skip over what I said and just post an ad hominem because that doesn't really bring the conversation forward.

 

Abrideofchrist,

 

I stepped away from reading this thread and other threads as well after I sent you a PM.  I actually agree with much of the content of your posts but your tone is the problem.  It is fine and good to try to educate others as to your vocation as a consecrated virgin but the way your written words come across to readers of this thread is not helpful - its condescending and, at times, rude.  Many of us have tried to inform you of how you are being received in a spirit of charity but you have deflected their comments as you did above.

 

I think at this point you need to ask yourself why you are still posting when people have told you that you are not giving good example (in tone, not content) to those who sincerely desire to follow Christ.  If it is for any other reason than to give glory to God and to build up the Body of Christ here on this phorum, I suggest you step away for a bit.  I am not suggesting that your intentions are bad but that they may not be serving the need that is present here and now.  

 

I hope you know that although this post is quite direct, I wrote it with concern for you as a sister in Christ as well as with concern for the young women who look to this phorum for support and guidance, not intellectual academic discussion and debate.  Possibly you didn't get my first PM or you were too busy to respond but I think when this many people are responding in the same way to you there is something there to look at.  Maybe you could take this thread to your next time of prayer or spiritual direction and reflect on it prayerfully, knowing that we are all grateful for the gift of your vocation and using it as an opportunity to grow closer to Christ.

 

Please pray for me as I pray for you as well!  SM

[abrideofChrist]

Sr. Marie, I appreciate your concern and prayers. 

 

With due respect, I decline to leave the thread I started.  No defense of that decision is needed amongst Catholic adults. 

 

If people are more concerned with my tone, my intentions, or my character, that is their decision and reflects upon them and where they are at in terms of being able to follow a line of reasoning without having strong emotions interfere.  I believe this is a subject that no matter how carefully and charitably it is couched, people will react with strong emotions because it is unpopular at its very basic level.  It takes the rug out from under peoples feet.  If I am not the target of these emotions, something else or someone else will be, because it is too painful for many women in love with Christ to honestly ponder what it means to be a bride of Christ and it is easier to deflect this into something easier to do like policing tone.  I am not saying that you are policing tone, I am saying this in general.  If I had an abortion, then it is far easier for me to attack the tone of someone saying that abortion is murder than it is to acknowledge to myself that if it is murder, then maybe I did murder a baby.  If I am wedded to the idea that the essence of an enclosed nun's vocation is to be bride, then it is easier for me to deflect the discussion into a criticism of a CV than it is to ponder the notion of what it means to have a specific title and how does the Church see this.  Whereas get a person who does not have the emotional ties to having had an abortion and it is much easier for them to acknowledge and consider abortion to be murder.  Get a person who is not wedded to the idea that the essence of being a nun is to be a bride of Christ and it is easier for them to ponder the subject without getting wrapped up in tone policing. 

 

I realize that this is something people have not thought about before, but I do not consider it a merely academic discussion.  VS is to help people with understanding vocations better.  A lot of people dismiss consecrated virginity because they honestly believe that someone who is not a sister cannot be a bride of Christ!  So, understanding of what it means to be a bride of Christ is necessary before one can understand the vocation to consecrated virginity.  Understanding why the Church has two Rites for the Profession of nuns is important for someone discerning her vocation.  Honestly, I think that when Laurie finds the time to talk about Aquinas's distinctions about analogy, that people will be able to understand both vocations better.  This will be a good thing.  Until then, though, I will continue to be present on this thread as I see fit because grown ups do not flee a conversation because it gets uncomfortable.

[Laurie]

I will try to make Aquinas on analogy a priority in the next two weeks. If we don't succeed in getting this thread moved, I'll start a new one in the debate table on that topic.

[Sister Marie]

ABC, I appreciate your dedication to following what your conscience has submitted as necessary and I although I disagree with the method, I understand the need to promote right understanding of your vocation.  

 

Many of the women on this phorum are not all grown up yet and most do not have the education you do on this topic or in theology in general (I include myself in this.  I am an educator, not a theologian).  What you are saying goes against what women religious, whom they know and respect, have told them.  I'm just putting it out there that possibly, while your academic thoughts are right, what they need is to hear this from a woman they know as a model of Christian life, growing in holiness, and well-educated.  The problem is that they don't know you yet.  I know to your academic sensibilities this may not be substantial but for those who are not scholars it is important especially when you are asking them to go against what they have been taught by many others.

 

With that in mind I wanted to ask, have you ever sent a letter to the communities who actively promote what you disagree with or to the person in charge of promoting vocations to religious life in the diocese in which you live (sometimes there is a sister or council of sisters that form a vocation board)?  This seems like a tug of war between what you believe and what they believe and the discerners here are in the middle.  Maybe you have already spoken to religious about this... I don't know and you are under no obligation to tell me anyway but I just wanted to make the suggestion.

 

Thank you for knowing that my comment was made out of charity.  Prayers, SM

 

 

[Egeria]

If I am wedded to the idea that the essence of an enclosed nun's vocation is to be bride, then it is easier for me to deflect the discussion into a criticism of a CV than it is to ponder the notion of what it means to have a specific title and how does the Church see this.  Whereas get a person who does not have the emotional ties to having had an abortion and it is much easier for them to acknowledge and consider abortion to be murder.  Get a person who is not wedded to the idea that the essence of being a nun is to be a bride of Christ and it is easier for them to ponder the subject without getting wrapped up in tone policing. 

I am the direct opposite of this. I was (well, still am although it's a bit complicated at present) an enclosed nun and have always found the identification of nuptial imagery and monastic life problematic and have often argued that the entanglement of the identities of Consecrated Virgins and nuns, particularly those in the monastic / Benedictine tradition has been unhelpful for both. I have absolutely no emotional investment in the idea of nuns as brides of Christ, or, if I do, it's a negative one. I should therefore have been open to the ideas that you were advancing. However, you alienated me, as you have alienated others (with whom, at a theoretical level I would not necessarily agree), not by your ideas but by your tone - by your arrogance, insensitivity and rudeness to others who have bent over backwards to be polite to you. Even now you continue with self-justification and blaming others. If you cannot see that you are bringing your own vocation into disrepute, there's not much anyone else can do.

[God's Beloved]

Coming back to the theme of this thread :

 

Many religious sisters I know do not see themselves as brides of Christ. Some see Him as a brother, father, friend, Guru or Teacher , Role-Model in service , as Truth to satisfy their thirst etc.

 

I know some belonging to the LCWR in USA who actually oppose the imagery of bride of Christ applied specifically to consecrated women .

 

There are religious in Africa and Asia who are moving away from this imagery due to past experiences of abuse by clergy.

 

There are an increasing number of women religious who desire that the Church should allow ordination of women , so they prefer to see themselves as 'Another Christ'  or Christ as Servant etc.

 

on Phatmass there seem to be majority of traditional and conservative women . If the threads on the Phorum are read by those who follow the more liberal line of thinking of the National catholic reporter , they will find it too conservative.

 

One thing I agree is that discerners should know what is the Essence or Charism of each vocation to be able to make informed choices. Seeing the growing number of religious women who do not see themselves as brides of Christ , it is becoming clear that  in today's world -being called bride of Christ is not the Charism or Essence of Religious life in general. So religious women who do see themselves as brides of Christ should not feel that CVs claim superiority or monopoly over this tradition.

 

The Second Vatican Council  which led to update of the Code of Canon law  has clearly stated the Equality of dignity of all the baptized.

 

 

[abrideofChrist]

Sr. Marie,

 

I appreciate this follow up. 

 

When I began this thread a year ago, I did it to explain what I meant in yet another thread when I talked about "specific title of Bride of Christ".  Since I am relatively unknown, as you point out, I went to the Church's own documents to illustrate what I was talking about. The people here love the Church and I felt that quoting from the actual Rites was helpful and respected priests/bishops (like Dubay & Bugnini) would let them see that I was not saying this from merely my own perspective but pointing them to people they do respect. 

 

Some CVs are working on books and articles that will, among other things, touch upon what it means to be a bride of Christ.  There are many well educated CVs who are respected in their fields (did you know that Dr. Janet Smith is one of them?) and many are part of an informal network in which they swap materials, ideas, and sources.  I understand that one CV has been invited to publish her thoughts on this subject in the Religious Life magazine (the IRL magazine).  Because of this, I feel it is better for me to wait on approaching religious until these materials are available.  It is mostly CMSWRs who emphasize bridal spirituality - not LCWRs - and most of the active communities belong to the IRL. Again, I only started this thread because I was explaining what I meant by the "The Bride of Christ" elsewhere. 

 

Egeria, I actually have not seen a whole lot of evidence of people like you trying to bend over backwards in being polite to me.  Sr. M. Catherine was insulted by what I had to say and promptly marshalled her quotes from St. Thomas to "prove" that religious were superior to CVs. Since she was insinuating I didn't know what I was talking about because she "had" St. Thomas on her side, I asked her to balance it out and quote St. Thomas' beautiful words on the vocation to consecrated virginity.   You and others swooped in without contributing ANYTHING of value to the discussion MERELY to insult me, my intentions, and my character.  I was blown away by the venom expressed by the self same people who have professed to be shocked that anyone would disrespect a consecrated person towards me, a consecrated person!  This is not bending backwards in being polite to me.  There were people who were polite and they did contribute a great deal to the conversation, particularly Chiquitonga, Sr. Marie, Laurie, and MarysLittleFlower.  A public thanks on my part to them.

 

God's Beloved, I agree that all the baptized are equal in dignity as human beings.  Thank you for the reminder. 

 

[das8949]

ABC,

 

If you were speaking, I would say you are not listening to what is being said to you. Countless are trying to offer you a learning opportunity - its not so much what we say, but how we say it...No more, no less... This is less about debate and more about your fearful temper of someone having to be right and the other wrong.

[God's Beloved]

Recently the Prefect of the Congregation for the Inst. of Cons. life in Rome , during an interview  stated the openness of the Church to Men being Consecrated as Virgins  according to the OCV .

 

By the time the Church formally defines several of the concepts related to Consecrated virginity that is presently reserved for women , maybe  men will also be allowed . Then the whole theology will change. There are such rapid changes taking place in the world, we need to be open to reading and hearing things that may be shocking  or painful to hear . Consecrated women especially need to be strong emotionally to face all kinds of discussions and questions today , even if they seem to challenge our traditional beliefs and understanding in various matters.

[abrideofChrist]

Yes, God's Beloved, I know that the Cong. for Religious did state that openness to consideration.  I have the feeling, though, that any attempt to open this specific Rite to men would be shot down by the CDF.  The CDF absolutely nixed the idea the fathers of the commission for revising the Rite of Consecration had of allowing non-bishops impart the consecration.  The reason?  They cited immemorial custom.  It's not just a matter of immemorial custom but the theology behind it.  Cardinal Burke referred to a very interesting development that suggests that any consecration attempted by a priest is invalid. I think the CDF would cite the same reason for not allowing men to be consecrated as Brides of Christ.

Edited August 3, 2013 by abrideofChrist

[God's Beloved]

Since the Rite of consecration to a life of virginity is so ancient and new , 99.9 % scholars do not know about its theology.

 

Few know that the theology of the Sacrament of matrimony is based on the theology of the Rite for virgins.

 

The Church's refusal  to consider ordination for women  is also parallel to the tradition of the Church to refuse the consecration of virgins  for men.

 

The day men are admitted to the Rite of consecration of virgins, the Church will face pressures to  allow  homosexual 'marriages' and  ordination for women ........because the Theology of the body will crash.

 

 

I'm sending you a PM in a few minutes , please do respond  .

[abrideofChrist]

Coming back to the theme of this thread :

 

Many religious sisters I know do not see themselves as brides of Christ. Some see Him as a brother, father, friend, Guru or Teacher , Role-Model in service , as Truth to satisfy their thirst etc.

 

I know some belonging to the LCWR in USA who actually oppose the imagery of bride of Christ applied specifically to consecrated women .

 

There are religious in Africa and Asia who are moving away from this imagery due to past experiences of abuse by clergy.

 

There are an increasing number of women religious who desire that the Church should allow ordination of women , so they prefer to see themselves as 'Another Christ'  or Christ as Servant etc.

 

on Phatmass there seem to be majority of traditional and conservative women . If the threads on the Phorum are read by those who follow the more liberal line of thinking of the National catholic reporter , they will find it too conservative.

 

One thing I agree is that discerners should know what is the Essence or Charism of each vocation to be able to make informed choices. Seeing the growing number of religious women who do not see themselves as brides of Christ , it is becoming clear that  in today's world -being called bride of Christ is not the Charism or Essence of Religious life in general. So religious women who do see themselves as brides of Christ should not feel that CVs claim superiority or monopoly over this tradition.

 

The Second Vatican Council  which led to update of the Code of Canon law  has clearly stated the Equality of dignity of all the baptized.

 

God's Beloved, I am really glad you posted this.  It got me thinking of my own discernment days when I was struggling to figure out what God was calling me to do vocationally.  I remember being confused by the insistence by some religious communities that they were "brides of Christ" and on the other hand, the claim that religious are not "brides of Christ" given by other religious communities.  I remember being very edified by the beautiful stories of women who found Christ to be the center of their lives as a Spouse and I remember being very edified by the stories of religious who saw Christ in other ways that they used to find their path to holiness.  It was confusing, to say the least.  I think it is very helpful for people who are discerning religious life to take the two statements seriously and try to make sense of what is being said. 

 

Why do some sisters call themselves Brides of Christ?  Why do some sisters call themselves friends of Christ or see Christ as a brother?  What are the reasons both bring to the table for saying what they are saying?  By untangling this puzzle, we can have a better idea of what it is that we feel called to in the heart of our hearts.  By not grappling with these concepts, we don't do them justice, if we merely pick one side and not study why the other side says what it does. 

 

It's not always easy.  I wanted to be a priest.  I had to study what the Church actually taught about the priesthood to understand why I couldn't be one.  It wasn't enough to be told I can't, and it wasn't enough to be told I can.  I wanted to understand it so I could be at peace with my decisions.