Bride Of Christ

[abrideofChrist]

MaterMisericordiae, I thought of starting a new thread to let people know you will be leaving Phatmass.  I am sorry to hear you are quitting PM but do wish you the very best and know that my prayers go with you. I know you've posted about losing your pet and that is very painful. Again, my condolences. I think of PM as a big family, we are all unique.  Some of us are a little rowdier than others but honestly, we all contribute somehow and at the end of each day, we know we're praying for each other.

 

Also, if you're getting ready to head back to school, that is a stressful transition.  Vocational discernment is best done when there is not a lot of upheaval in one's life and it sounds like you are suffering a lot.  It is very wise for you to take a step back and focus on the things God needs you to take care of right now.  Again, I wish you the best of everything, that God's grace be with you and that Our Lady cover you with her mantle.

[Ima Lurker]

I'd like to interject a question if it's okay.

 

I mostly lurk on PM due to anxiety so please bear with me. It's hard for me to put myself out there. 

 

If what you say is true, ABride, then what do you hope to accomplish by posting here? Do you want Nuns to stop using the term "Spouse of Jesus Christ" since by your logic, they are a less perfect image of the title? Are you hoping to redefine the terms? Do you think CVs to be the only people using the term since, by the arguments presented, they are the most perfect image of the Church as Bride? What would this mean for Religious Nuns? And if it's not too much, I know you said you don't think Orders would "die out" but do you think that they might adapt to fit the new definitions giving more virgin women the chance to consecrate themselves this way? 

 

Really and truly thank you to everyone who contributed to this post. Such a wealth of information! I had barely heard of the vocation and wanted to learn more but due to time constraints (homeschooling mom), I usually up to my eyeballs in grading papers, etc.. and don't have much time for myself right now. I feel like PM lets me cheat a little! :) 

 

And I know that it's not much, but if you see this, MM, I have been praying for you when you post prayer requests. I will continue to pray for you. I would request your prayers as well, if it's okay. God bless! 

[Lilllabettt]

ABC - there is "rowdy" and there is "rude."  You have, once again, managed to offend several mild mannered and even-keeled people in this community, some of them long time members. 

 

Maybe you are just too unfamiliar with the culture here, or you are familiar but you refuse to assimilate, or you are on the autism spectrum and are oblivious to social cues.  Until recently (ahem) VS has not been a rowdy or rude part of the phorum. The culture here is supportive, with everyone bending over backwards to "understand" and show appreciation and respect. For some reason you seem unable to anticipate the pain and upset you will cause when you say things like your suggestion that Nuns are deceptive. Or you are aware and simply don't care. That's a different problem.

 

But either way, I am telling you that your behavior is upsetting a number of people in this community. Please hear that and make adjustments. It is not about being "right" it is about being kind and considerate to other people in a community in which you are still new. Please do not be defensive about whether people should be offended  - people are offended.

 

 

 

 

 

[AnneLine]

I've been super busy this week and not even able to get some commitments I had planned done... so I have hesitated to post on this.  I don't enjoy arguments, and I really didn't want to get involved.   I respect what the predominant posters in this thread have been saying (although I lost the logic and the value of the arguments about 20 pages ago, to be honest....)  

 

HOWEVER, I have to agree with what several recent posters have been saying... and this is meant in the most loving way I can think to say it.... This thread curls my toes.   Whatever your intent, I don't think it necessarily has been helpful to too many people, and I think it is causing some harm.  People have been and are being hurt by it. 

 

I realize you may not believe that.   I am aware of several people who have been upset by the tone of the discussion, and the kinds of distinctions that have been being made. 

 

Several religious sisters have been slighted.. and yes, treated rudely.  That is not ok in my book.  The same with women who for whatever reason are no longer as 'virginal' as they might wish they were.  Bottom line... people are feeling that they are being judged as inferior, whether you realize it or not.  One person told me that if she had not already successfully returned to the Church, the wrangling in this thread would have sent her off back far, far away from the Catholic Church, much less consecrated life.  If one soul wanders away from a consecrated vocation because of a thread like this, it is a sad thing....

 

I'm not a theologian... I'm not a canon lawyer, I'm not a nun.   I'm a lay woman who is married, and who is a member of a secular order.   But I also know that my relationship with God is a bridal one -- NOT as the defining fact of my relationship with Him and/or with the Church... but because that is how He chooses to relate to me.   And that is enough for me.   As St. Ignatius put it succinctly, "Give me only Your Love... and Your Grace... that's enough for me."

 

God chooses whom He wills to enter into relationship with Him.   I don't find it too helpful to be arguing about which form of consecration is more complete or more beautiful... I would say that the heart that is most given over to God is the one that is most pleasing to Him.  And that is all I intend to focus on.

 

It is interesting to me that St. John of the Cross' Living Flame of Love... a poem that is about the essential bride-ness of the soul with Christ... was written for a lay woman with children. 

 

I liked what Lilllabettt noted about the culture of Vocation Station vis a vis Phatmass as a whole.  If you want to wrangle about the spirituality of the Consecrated Virgin lifestyle, it probably belongs under Transmundane Lane....  If you want a debate... put it in the Debate Table.  Whether it is good or bad, people try to keep Vocation Station as a 'kinder and gentler' place.   That is the predominant culture in this little hamlet of Phatmass.   We try not to judge each other, we try to be supportive.   We try most of the time to stay AWAY from topics that are argumentative.   Sometimes I wonder if that is healthy... but it is what it is.

 

Now I have some stuff I have to get done, but I am lovingly praying for all who have / did / will post here.  May we all find God together....

[abrideofChrist]

Actually, Lillebet, I was not referring to myself as being "rowdy".  I meant the whole of Phatmass, including the whole "gay" thread that dUst posted.  I was also referring to the numerous ad hominem attacks I have been the target of in this thread as "rowdy" behavior. 

 

Sponsa Christi clarified that the proper way of reading what I said about deceptive practices is in the material sense not in the culpable sense.  I took that as a given because I had assumed that people on a Catholic forum would know the difference in how to read it.  Laurie clarified that I even mentioned my own deep pain and the pain other CVs have shared with me when faced with the fact that not all nuns are brides of Christ in the way the Church is. 

 

 

 

 

[abrideofChrist]

Anneline, I am sorry people feel inferior.  Perhaps it would have been helpful if they had asked me/us directly whether I was saying they WERE inferior?  I personally do not feel inferior to priests even though I will never be a priest.  But I do know quite a few people who are confused about the states of life feel very inferior to ordained priests.  This is a reason, to my mind, to seek further clarity and discussion.

[God's Beloved]

Would like to get back to the topic of the thread .

 

The WHO aspect of the Bride of Christ theme:

 

Every Christian whether male or female is a bride of Christ  through the concrete but  spiritual bond of Baptism . So also persons in religious life – whether men or women- individually or as  community- are bride of Christ through a spiritual bond. They consecrate themselves through the profession of vows . This maybe does not enhance their baptismal spousal bond  with Christ. What it does  enhance is the Symbolism of the Church’s  bridal relationship with Christ . [Baptism is a sacrament and religious profession renews the grace of baptism according to the Rite of profession of religious women ].

 

Canon 607#1  Religious life, as a consecration of the whole person , manifests in the Church the marvellous marriage established by God as a sign of the world to come........

 

Maybe there can be sharing on other aspects :

 

 Why is the Church of Christ called the Bride of Christ. Why is the CV as an individual given this title of the Church.

 Since  every baptized Christian / Catholic  is a bride of Christ in different ways , What is the purpose of this relationship in all    the different states of life ?

 

It will be wonderful if persons in different states of life share whether they are called to symbolize the bride of Christ  imagery in their lives /vocation . If yes, then how do they manifest it , how does this serve the broader picture of the vocation of the Church to be a Sacrament of Salvation in the multi-religious and sometimes atheistic World.

 

How is all this applied to the Post Vatican II era  ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Lil'Nun]

I got as far as page 11 - then I stopped. Much as my ego longs for the great grace of being a true and worthy bride of Christ. I am more than happy to be His poorest servant - as long as I can keep close to Him, please him and do his will. I know he loves me - and that is much more than enough for me, even if my ego raises its ugly, selfish head from time to time.  :)

 

 

 

 

[AccountDeleted]

I simply cannot believe the tone of this whole thread - nor can I understand why it is even necessary. It seems to be trying to prove a point in order to make one group of people appear superior in some way to other groups of people. Is this even Christian?

 

 

The Greatest in the Kingdom

 

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.…Matt 18:1-3

 

But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all. Mark 9:34-35

 

When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, 'Give your place to this man,' and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. "But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher'; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. Lk 14:8-11

Edited August 3, 2013 by nunsense

[beatitude]

I agree with Nunsense.

 

Whenever there is a discussion on Phatmass between consecrated virgins, the result always seems to be 20+ pages of nit-picking and quibbling that takes on an increasingly sour and even unkind tone. No doubt someone will wish to tell me that this isn't nit-picking, it's discussion of vitally important things that I just don't have the knowledge to understand, and it's crucial that all the misconceptions be cleared up. But the only thing that ever seems to become clear in these discussions is an embarrassing lack of charity and compassion. It's a flimsy excuse for people to say that they weren't really being mean-spirited, other people just don't understand their special complex super-scholarly language, not when they have made snarky statements like "My bad. I assumed you had an Internet connection and could look up these documents for yourself!" to a person who is disagreeing with them. There is nothing scholarly or difficult to understand about that kind of behaviour: it's just passive-aggressive and nasty.

 

I know someone in real life who is interested in becoming a CV. I think it says something very sad that I would not feel comfortable directing her to Phatmass for support.

[Egeria]

I agree with much of what recent commentators have said, but I would like to thank Sponsa-Christi for her charitable and balanced contribution which did a lot in my eyes to rescue the reputation of CVs.

[Laurie]

One thing I've been working on as I get the chance is how Aquinas' use of analogy could help explain the various ways we use "Bride of Christ" in the Church.

 

Analogy is used when a term is neither univocal nor equivocal. Analogy is a beautiful (and brilliant) way to get at the meaning of the language we use to describe certain things and their relationships to each other.

 

But it's complicated, too, and will take a certain amount of free time, thought, and analysis to work out. I didn't want to throw out half-formulated ideas on the thread and, working full time, with my jail apostolate, and a car that was recently towed (!) things have been crazy.

 

I've shared some thoughts privately with ABC and she agrees it sounds like a promising avenue.

 

As for those who might be discouraged vocations-wise about reading this thread, again, all I can do is try to put forth my experience and opinion. I'm not a CV. I do very much appreciate what ABC and the others who are dialoguing here are doing. This is a fairly new (new-old!) vocation in the Church. The hashing out of ideas and meanings at times like this can be difficult and painful. But that doesn't mean its not worthwhile.

 

Perhaps a moderator will decide this should be a debate table thread. Whatever the case may be, at some point I will try to return with some insights from Aquinas. (BTW, much of the time here when we say "Aquinas," we really mean Aquinas plus a whole bunch of ancient and medieval thinkers who came before him. He was a brilliant synthesizer. So when he coms up with something insightful and helpful, it's good to know he is very often building on the work of virtous pagans and solid medievals who came before him!)

 

 

[abrideofChrist]

Ladies, I do not know where you are pulling the whole idea from that I or any other CV is saying that Consecrated Virginity makes a person superior (or a CV superior to a nun).  I NEVER said that.  What I DID say was that ALL CONSECRATIONS in the Consecrated Life are EQUAL.  That means that I was saying is that I did NOT and do NOT believe the Consecration of Virginity to be SUPERIOR to the Consecration of Religious.  If you are going to go full out and jump in on a thread that is lengthy to attack what I supposedly said, please do me the courtesy of carefully reading what it was that I DID say.  I have been very, very careful to make sure that I understood where people were coming from so as to not characterize what it was that they said.  That means that to be rigorously fair, I actually read the 400 or so pages of that dissertation that God's Beloved linked to earlier in this thread.  Why?  Because I wanted to make SURE we had common ground and that I had respectfully and carefully considered someone else's position!

 

What I WAS saying was NOT that CVs are superior, but that there is a vast difference between HOW and WHAT they consecrate.  Consecrated virginity specifically consecrates a woman as bride.  Religious consecration specifically consecrates a woman as a disciple following Jesus according to the evangelical counsels, etc.  A CVs vocation participates in the following of the evangelical counsels (all Christian vocations do!) but not in a VOWED manner and certainly not in the way the essence of religious life would require.  A nun's vocation participates in the bridal aspect of the Church/ CV vocation, but not in the consecrated manner (for if it were, then priest-monks would be Brides of Christ), nor in the same essential way that the bridal identity of CV's consists of.

 

I did give an analogy to Laurie that made her think of Aquinas's work on analogy, and I do think that what he says about it is valuable for understanding the nuances of this subject. 

 

The analogy I keep thinking of when I read the venom on this thread towards myself, is that it is analagous to the venom directed towards the Church for supposedly saying that gay people are going to hell.  The Church doesn't say that a gay person is going to hell, but that a person who sins  with full knowledge that homosexuality is seriously sinful will go to hell if they die unrepentant.  There's a huge difference, isn't there?  It's in the nuances of what the Church actually says vs. what some people want to say the Church says.  I do not think there would be such an uproar if people carefully read what it was that I actually said.  If this is too much work, then please, don't skip over what I said and just post an ad hominem because that doesn't really bring the conversation forward.

[AccountDeleted]

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

 

If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

 

And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.… 1 Cor 13:1-3

[abrideofChrist]

I simply cannot believe the tone of this whole thread - nor can I understand why it is even necessary. It seems to be trying to prove a point in order to make one group of people appear superior in some way to other groups of people. Is this even Christian?

 

I am sorry that you feel the tone is offensive to Christians.  Is there something about the fact that it is a matter of dogma that the state of celibacy is superior to the state of marriage that is unChristian?  (Cf. Council of Trent, Catechism of the Catholic Church, and Vita Consecrata) 

 

If you relied upon Anneline to reliably transmit my thoughts on the subject via her latest and only post in the 23 pages, then I'm afraid she really goofed up on this one.  She substantially mischaracterized what I said, and others are now feeling freer to jump into the bandwagon of criticizing things I never stated.  I never said that the vocation of consecrated virginity is superior to that of enclosed nuns.  I never said that a virgin is holier than a non-virgin.  I never said that the souls' relationship to God was not spousal (look at ALL the clarifications I made with regard to Dubays 4 categories).  She implies that this was my position and attacks it.  I get it. 22 pages is long and can be hard to wade through.  But I made VERY important distinctions and I have spent a LONG time making them.  It is UNFAIR and UNJUST to skim something and criticize something severely because of the said skimming.