Bride Of Christ

[Sponsa-Christi]

Laurie and abrideofChrist,

 

I should have mentioned this more clearly before, but part of my concern with authoritative vs. non-authoritative sources is the context of this discussion.

 

Not to undermine anyone's sincerity or intelligence here, but Phatmass is not an academic symposium open primarily to scholars. There are people from all different backgrounds here, and most people come here for information rather than to present their academic research or to debate their scholarly theses. (And even for people with academic degrees in the sacred sciences, when you post in a forum with a more colloquial tone, it's only natural that you're interpret other posters in a colloquial way, and that you yourself will naturally try to phrase your ideas in such a less formal manner.)

 

So if someone here presents him or herself as an expert, it's very likely that whatever he or she says will be taken at absolute face value. If you say, "Nuns are deceiving people when they call themselves 'brides of Christ'," not everyone is going to be able to contextualize this in the way you're saying they should. (E.g., I don't think many people here read this and thought: "Okay, she only means material deception, not formal deception; and I see how this is a well-argued theological theory even if the Church has yet to define things this way...") Whether or not they "should" react this way, some people are going to be very hurt--or maybe even scandalized--when they read things like this. 

 

Likewise, if you say something like: "This eminent theologian, who also works at the Vatican, say X," I think you have to be prepared for the possibility that there will be some people here who DO think this means that this theologian's opinion is the same thing as the Church's official teaching. 

 

I think that being pastorally sensitive and understanding the needs of your audience is just as important as making solid theological arguments.

[Laurie]

Laurie and abrideofChrist,

 

I think that being pastorally sensitive and understanding the needs of your audience is just as important as making solid theological arguments.

 

I think this is true, though it sounds like we have far different opinions about how to achieve this.

 

To my mind, writing clearly and documenting well the insights that are given, and to point others to good sources, IS being pastorally sensitive. It is giving others the tools to grapple with and come to an understanding of the discussion at hand.

 

The bottom line is that all sorts of people read these posts. We can't possibly anticipate what tone is best for each one, what all the myriad of education levels will be, etc. That means the best course of action is to present cohesive, solid research and analysis. (At least, that's the best course of action in this particular thread that ABC has started--that is, not a lightweight thread. It's dedicated to hashing out an important and nuanced topic.)

 

I agree with ABC that the reader has obligations. If he or she is investigating a vocation in the Roman Catholic Church, he or she should be likewise investigating what the Church teaches and why she teaches it in all sorts of areas, and coming to an understanding of how she functions.

 

It's unrealistic to think that we would define/refine and footnote all of the discussions on this thread. I think it is far wiser to present compelling arguments regarding the Church's vocations. At the very least, any reader who is even a wee bit intellectually and spiritually curious may have his or her mind awakened. That's a good thing! We can't expect to dot every i and cross every t for someone else. To do so isn't pastoral. It's offering watered down porridge instead of filet mignon, I would say!

 

[abrideofChrist]

Sponsa Christi!  How is it you wish to do YET ANOTHER round on how you want to define and weigh things and help the people reading this thread read things?  They are not children and presumably educated enough to be able to start figuring out how the Church gives different levels of belief to things depending on what they are.  Can't we just stick to the topic???  The topic is The Bride of Christ by Title.  Look, I understand how important this is to you, but if you really want to discuss theology and interpretation, can't you start another thread on it so you can educate those who wish to learn more about it there?  I prefer to stick the topic I posted about 22 pages ago.

[OnlySunshine]

Sponsa Christi!  How is it you wish to do YET ANOTHER round on how you want to define and weigh things and help the people reading this thread read things?  They are not children and presumably educated enough to be able to start figuring out how the Church gives different levels of belief to things depending on what they are.  Can't we just stick to the topic???  The topic is The Bride of Christ by Title.  Look, I understand how important this is to you, but if you really want to discuss theology and interpretation, can't you start another thread on it so you can educate those who wish to learn more about it there?  I prefer to stick the topic I posted about 22 pages ago.

 

I've really tried to hold back from responding to this thread because of the arguing going on here.  I really wish you would stop trying to argue in this forum.  It's one thing to ask questions and present information in a positive way but this is really ridiculous in a place where we are trying to promote vocations.  If you want to DEBATE something, that is what the DEBATE table is for...

[Laurie]

I've really tried to hold back from responding to this thread because of the arguing going on here.  I really wish you would stop trying to argue in this forum.  It's one thing to ask questions and present information in a positive way but this is really ridiculous in a place where we are trying to promote vocations.  If you want to DEBATE something, that is what the DEBATE table is for...

 

I think, though, the problem is that the thread was set up for a specific purpose. It wasn't set up for debate. It was set up to portray, in a cohesive manner, interpretations of this vocation.

 

Once we understand the original intention, I think it is easier to get back on track and converse in a way that advances the intention of the thread.

 

What I don't understand (and I don't spend much time on Phatmass, so perhaps this is why) is why people comment in a thread if they don't like that thread?

 

I'm not trying to argue with you MaterMisercordiae. I just, myself, would not continue to read, and I wouldn't post in, a thread in which I didn't like the topic or the way others were treating the discussion.

 

I thought that was the point of anyone and everyone being able to start a thread? That sub-groups of people can take a certain slant/topic/whatever and discuss it. And others are free to read it and join in, or not. Isn't that what Phatmass is for?

 

 

 

[Laurie]

I guess, to me, if that is NOT what Phatmass is for, then it comes across like a clique. It comes across as if you have to be pre-approved in order to belong here. It comes across as if everyone has to approve of everyone else, or it's not okay. To me, that seems like high school.

 

MM, to be clear, I don't think that is what YOU are getting at above. It's just something I've picked up in various comments at various times where a bunch of people will suddenly descend and want a thread to be discontinued. I don't get it. That's not my frame of mind when I come here to engage in discussion and share ideas.

[OnlySunshine]

I think, though, the problem is that the thread was set up for a specific purpose. It wasn't set up for debate. It was set up to portray, in a cohesive manner, interpretations of this vocation.

 

Once we understand the original intention, I think it is easier to get back on track and converse in a way that advances the intention of the thread.

 

What I don't understand (and I don't spend much time on Phatmass, so perhaps this is why) is why people comment in a thread if they don't like that thread?

 

I'm not trying to argue with you MaterMisercordiae. I just, myself, would not continue to read, and I wouldn't post in, a thread in which I didn't like the topic or the way others were treating the discussion.

 

I thought that was the point of anyone and everyone being able to start a thread? That sub-groups of people can take a certain slant/topic/whatever and discuss it. And others are free to read it and join in, or not. Isn't that what Phatmass is for?

 

It's really frustrating to me (and probably others) to come to VS and see this thread continually bumped up.  I wanted to disengage from this thread the moment that I saw a religious Sister being disrespected because she didn't agree with abrideofchrist.  She continues to post as though people are misunderstanding her but her posts nearly always come off in a negative tone.  Like I said before, I really did not want to post here but I've had enough of this thread.  I wish I could block it but I can't.
 

[OnlySunshine]

Also, to make myself clear, I don't care if a thread is started and I don't like the topic.  That's not the point.  My main concern is that do NOT appreciate seeing religious Sisters and those consecrated to the Church being disrespected anywhere.

[Laurie]

It's really frustrating to me (and probably others) to come to VS and see this thread continually bumped up.  I wanted to disengage from this thread the moment that I saw a religious Sister being disrespected because she didn't agree with abrideofchrist.  She continues to post as though people are misunderstanding her but her posts nearly always come off in a negative tone.  Like I said before, I really did not want to post here but I've had enough of this thread.  I wish I could block it but I can't.
 

 

I guess that's what I don't understand. I don't understand feeling frustrated that a topic you don't care for is being read by others.

 

For example, I made it clear earlier why I think the discussion here is helpful, and why I think we should all cut each other some slack regarding tone and intention. That's just my opinion. But as soemone who does appreciate this thread and what I'm learning on it, I'd hate to see it axed just because some others don't care for it. I hope Phatmass is large enough for all of us.

 

I would myself simply disengage from a topic I didn't care for. By moving on and reading that which did draw me.

 

BTW, doesn't this site have moderators? Would they intervene if they thought this topic should end?
 

[OnlySunshine]

I guess that's what I don't understand. I don't understand feeling frustrated that a topic you don't care for is being read by others.

 

For example, I made it clear earlier why I think the discussion here is helpful, and why I think we should all cut each other some slack regarding tone and intention. That's just my opinion. But as soemone who does appreciate this thread and what I'm learning on it, I'd hate to see it axed just because some others don't care for it. I hope Phatmass is large enough for all of us.

 

I would myself simply disengage from a topic I didn't care for. By moving on and reading that which did draw me.

 

BTW, doesn't this site have moderators? Would they intervene if they thought this topic should end?
 

 

Please read my post above this one.  I really wanted to make those aware who are continuing with this discussion that they may need to change their tone.  I've already asked a moderator to take a look at this thread but it may take a while.  This is my last post here.  Again, I did not want to engage in an argument.  Thanks for your understanding.

[Laurie]

Please read my post above this one.  I really wanted to make those aware who are continuing with this discussion that they may need to change their tone.  I've already asked a moderator to take a look at this thread but it may take a while.  This is my last post here.  Again, I did not want to engage in an argument.  Thanks for your understanding.

 

Your latest post hadn't loaded before I started typing to you.

 

Well, then I guess we'll see what the moderators say! I do remember people wanting other threads shut down in the past, and it didn't happen. But I don't know what the fine print rules are here, either.

 

I guess my point is that I am here, I have an opinion, and I don't think there's any problem with the tone. I've already explained why, a few times.

 

So, I'd hope things aren't shut down simply because there is a difference of opinion on what the "tone" should be, particularly in a thread that ABC is herself the author of. As I've said before, someone is always free to start a new thread. No one has to post here or read all of this!
 

[OnlySunshine]

Your latest post hadn't loaded before I started typing to you.

 

Well, then I guess we'll see what the moderators say! I do remember people wanting other threads shut down in the past, and it didn't happen. But I don't know what the fine print rules are here, either.

 

I guess my point is that I am here, I have an opinion, and I don't think there's any problem with the tone. I've already explained why, a few times.

 

So, I'd hope things aren't shut down simply because there is a difference of opinion on what the "tone" should be, particularly in a thread that ABC is herself the author of. As I've said before, someone is always free to start a new thread. No one has to post here or read all of this!
 

 

OK, I know I said I wouldn't post again but I want to make myself clear again.  I am not talking about you in particular.  I understand if you don't understand why I would post here.  I may not like the thread and that's OK.  My reasoning for posting is simply about the disrespect I've been seeing the last few days.  I don't intend to read this thread any further.  I'm sorry if my posts offend anyone.  Sometimes, though, it helps to have another perspective from the outside when you've been involved in the discussion for too long.  Hope this helps.  God bless.

[abrideofChrist]

MaterMisericordiae (Mother of Mercy)- Since I did not receive a PM before you publicly expressed your dismay at the fact that you felt consecrated persons were being disrespected, I take it for granted that you neither refer to me nor need a response from me outside of a PM. So, please excuse me if I return the focus of this thread to its origins and discuss the Bride of Christ. 

 

To all others: The reason many of us consecrated persons posted on this thread and continue to post is because we are genuinely interested in what it means to be a Bride of Christ.  I was reflecting today upon the beautiful intertwining of the vocations of marriage, holy orders, and consecrated virginity:

 

By her consecration, the virgin is, in a particular way, devoted to fostering the faithful and enduring love of the married.  Here is also an analogy with the promise of celibacy of the priest, which also places the priest in a special relationship of example and support to those called to the married life.    (Cardinal Burke)

 

It seems to me that one of the attractions of consecrated virginity is its homey family feel.  The vocation is spelled out in terms of being a mother; a virgin, and a bride.  Even the wording of the Consecration is personal like the phrases at the end, including may [God] "be your comfort in sorrow...protection in the midst of injustice...".  God is portrayed as having a very direct Husband role in the life of the consecrated virgin.  It is He who defends her, He who sustains her.  Earthly marriage helps a virgin to understand what it means to relate to God in an intensely personal way that is not coupled with a very institutional corporate approach to how life is to be lived for a consecrated person.  It is likewise striking that the wellbeing of married persons and widows is entrusted to the prayers of the virgin, again emphasizing this homey motif. 

Edited August 3, 2013 by abrideofChrist

[OnlySunshine]

MaterMisericordiae (Mother of Mercy)- Since I did not receive a PM before you publicly expressed your dismay at the fact that you felt consecrated persons were being disrespected, I take it for granted that you neither refer to me nor need a response from me outside of a PM. So, please excuse me if I return the focus of this thread to its origins and discuss the Bride of Christ. 

 

To all others: The reason many of us consecrated persons posted on this thread and continue to post is because we are genuinely interested in what it means to be a Bride of Christ.  I was reflecting today upon the beautiful intertwining of the vocations of marriage, holy orders, and consecrated virginity:

 

By her consecration, the virgin is, in a particular way, devoted to fostering the faithful and enduring love of the married.  Here is also an analogy with the promise of celibacy of the priest, which also places the priest in a special relationship of example and support to those called to the married life.    (Cardinal Burke)

 

It seems to me that one of the attractions of consecrated virginity is its homey family feel.  The vocation is spelled out in terms of being a mother; a virgin, and a bride.  Even the wording of the Consecration is personal like the phrases at the end, including may [God] "be your comfort in sorrow...protection in the midst of injustice...".  God is portrayed as having a very direct Husband role in the life of the consecrated virgin.  It is He who defends her, He who sustains her.  Earthly marriage helps a virgin to understand what it means to relate to God in an intensely personal way that is not coupled with a very institutional corporate approach to how life is to be lived for a consecrated person.  It is likewise striking that the wellbeing of married persons and widows is entrusted to the prayers of the virgin, again emphasizing this homey motif. 

 

I have my PMs turned off for a good reason - I am too busy to read them.  I haven't posted here in several days because I've been incredibly busy preparing to return to school later this month.  I am really starting to think that Vocation Station is just not a good place for me to be anymore.  This thread started out being informative and respectful but it seemed to turn away from that on July 24th (I decided to go back and read and I saw that I wasn't the only person who thought the tone of this thread was disrespectful). 

 

Unfortunately, I think it's time for me to leave Phatmass altogether.  I don't feel that posting in an online forum is conducive to discerning my vocation any longer.  If anything, I think it hurts it because of personal opinions and misunderstandings I see here.  Maybe someday, I'll feel it's OK for me to return but I don't see that happening anytime soon.  It really is a shame.  I loved participating in Vocation Station for many years.  Not so much in last few months, though.

Edited August 3, 2013 by MaterMisericordiae

[abrideofChrist]

Homey motif continued....

 

 

The world needs the message that consecrated virgins convey.  You show respect for God's will and plan regarding human love, marriage, and the family.  You show that chastity is basically respect for this plan and will of God.  At the same time you demonstrate that with God's grace it is possible to sacrifice marriage and its attractions for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven.  (Cardinal Arinze)

 

This I think helps show how closely united the images of family, marriage, and the consecration of virgins are united.

Edited August 3, 2013 by abrideofChrist