Obedience To Authority Figures

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1344268810' post='2463464']
I'm gonna through a tl;dr of what I said in the other thread into here regarding a priest commanding things particular to the rubrics of the liturgy: the priest has absolutely no authority to command anything that is an addition or an alteration to the rubrics of the Sacred Liturgy. he doesn't have that kind of authority over the liturgy, over you, or over your spiritual life. if he commands anything that is an addition or an alteration to the rubrics of the liturgy, that command can be safely ignored because he doesn't have the authority to make that command, in any capacity. his lack of authority over the liturgy is absolute (except where the rubrics give him legitimate options), he is a servant of the liturgy.

now, other things on this thread over here being discussed are non-liturgical, so there's a different debate going on. does what I said about liturgical actions mean he has no authority over a dress code at his Church? I'm not sure, he might. he certainly would not have the right to refuse the sacraments to anyone not following his arbitrary dress code of something like a suit and tie, that would be contrary to canon law, though he could turn people away if they were dressed immodestly in a way that could cause scandal, like the dress codes for Italian churches. if the pastor of a church actually declared a dress code and the bishop basically gave his consent by not sacking him after all the angry phone calls into the chancery, then I think it'd be prudent to follow it to the best of one's ability. would one be bound to follow it under pain of sin? I'm not sure, actually.
[/quote]

I totally agree with all you said, but what about an arch bishop, can he add or take away, and can the vatican give special condolence to new orders whom are trying to establish a personalised liturgy to there brand of new wine based on the ordinary liturgy, like lets say charesmatic praise after songs and the agnus dei in latin, surely that some of the latin rites and coptic etc and as far as i'm aware must have had this exception made when starting out whilke remaining an exception still in communion with rome, which makes me wonder how many have tried this succesfully and how many unsuccesfully and have gone back to the standard liturgy while still remaining a seperate order from the novus ordo and still in communion with rome.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Aloysius]

There are legitimate options in the General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM), and bishops conferences are able to establish various other norms with Vatican approval. the Bishop is the chief liturgist in his diocese, but even he is only a servant of the liturgy and is only supposed to enforce the norms to keep communion with the universal liturgy of the Roman Church.
"[font=Times, 'Times New Roman', serif][b]Liturgy is genuinely liturgy only if it is not subject to the will of those who celebrate it."[/b][/font] -Pope Benedict XVI

at a certain level there is certainly authority for liturgical legislation to be changed and altered, obviously the Pope can promulgate different liturgical laws and texts and approve local bishops alterations et cetera, but even at that highest level they ought to try to view the liturgy not as something to be tinkered with at their whims.

"The Liturgy of the Church goes beyond this same "conciliar reform" (cf. [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium,[/i] 1), whose purpose, in fact, was not mainly that of changing the rites and the texts, but rather that of renewing the mentality and placing, at the center of Christian life and of pastoral [activity], the celebration of the Paschal Mystery of Christ. Unfortunately, perhaps, even by us, Pastors and experts, the Liturgy was treated more as an object to be reformed than as a subject, capable of renewing Christian life, from the moment in which "there exists a very close and organic link between the renewal of the Liturgy and the renewal of all the life of the Church. ..." -Pope Benedict XVI

[fides' Jack]

Aloysius, to better understand your position, would you mind clarifying something?

A parish priest is given authority over the pastoral care of his congregation. What does that mean to you, in the context of your argument here?

[Aloysius]

"for that same community he carries out the functions of teaching, sanctifying, and governing, also with the cooperation of other presbyters or deacons and with the assistance of lay members of the Christian faithful, according to the norm of law." -Canon 519

There are various teaching, sanctifying, and governing functions entrusted to a pastor.

The teaching functions are preaching and homeletics (canons 757, 762, 767), offering spiritual exercises and sacred missions (canon 770), evangelization, works of social justice (canon 528§1) catechesis and instruction in preparation for the sacraments (canons 528, 776, 777, 851, 890, 914, 1063§1).

The sanctifying office refers to providing the word of God to the people and the administration of the sacraments especially the Eucharist and confession (canons 528, 534), the imparting of solemn blessings (canon 530§6), fostering devotions and associations of the lay faithful that assist them in living their vocation (canon 529§2), and all the teaching and preaching would obviously be included in that.

Governance refers to the faculty to assist at marriages and dispense from marriage impediments (canons 1109-1111, 1079§2), to dispense from sunday and feast day obligations and from the obligation to fasting and abstinence (canon1245) and the administration of the parish including its goods and employees (canons 532, 1279.1).

In the sanctifying role, in the context of being a confessor, he may direct you to do things with some authority--particularly in the context of requiring penance or directing you with advice on how to overcome sinful behavior.

Canon 529 §1 "In order to fulfill his office diligently, the pastor is to strive to know the faithful entrusted to his care. Therefore, he is to visit families, sharing in their cares, anxieties and griefs of the faithful, strengthening them in the Lord and prudently correcting them if they are failing in certain areas. With generous love he is to help the sick, particularly those close to death, by refreshing them solicitously with the sacraments and commending their souls to God; with particular diligence he is to seek out the poor, the afflicted, the lonely, those exiled from their country, and similarly those weighed down by special difficulties. He is to work so that spouses and parents are supported in fulfilling their duties and is to foster growth of Christian life in the family."

I don't see any of this as some type of authority to command people to do things, except in the context of employees of the parish and such which would fall under the administration of the parish.

[KnightofChrist]

The priest would have the authority to command his flock to obey the teachings of the Church and command them to not to do actions which are sinful.

[Aloysius]

I wouldn't dispute that, falling under the obligation the pastor has in "prudently correcting them if they are failing in certain areas" (Canon 529§1) but the flock are morally obligated to obey the teachings of the Church and not do actions which are sinful regardless of whether the pastor tells them to or not, that's not a moral obligation that comes from a pastor's authority... this whole discussion came out of whether the priest can command you to stand to receive communion when the GIRM says the norm is standing [i]unless[/i] a member of the faithful wishes to kneel. the suggestion was made that if the priest told you that you had to stand, you were morally obligated to obey him under the priest's authority... my main point, of course, was that the priest doesn't have any authority to add or alter anything in the liturgy, but I also wanted to make the point that the priest or pastor doesn't have authority over you like a religious superior has over a member of a religious community--one owes obedience to a religious superior over many more matters than simply telling them to obey the teachings of the Church and refrain from sin, one does not owe that kind of obedience to a pastor IMO... I don't really have any practical examples of what kind of command the priest would be giving though, this was purely hypothetical, my main point is that a priest cannot order you to stand for communion when the GIRM allows you to kneel